1 Topic by tonyespo (edited by tonyespo 2010-03-18 16:40:29)

  • From: Deep Run, NC
  • Registered: 2010-01-29
  • Posts: 90

Topic: I'm needing help again.

Hello Chordie folks, I finally feel comfortable doing a few chord changes without too many screw ups.  Now my issue is my strumming.  I went to the strumming sticky and I have watched the YouTube lessons.  I can't believe that i am so uncoordinated.  I just can't seem to get the strums right when I add music (singing) to the strumming.  It's like the words and the strums don't sound right together.  I'm starting with the base note pluck, down/up strum for playing country songs.  As long as I don't sing, I can do the strum over and over again without much problem.  The minute I open my mouth my right hand stops strumming properly.  I'm open for all advice on how to coordinate singing and strumming.

tonyespo / 63 year old NEWBEE

I better learn to play fast, I'm already an old fart.
  • Zurf
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Re: I'm needing help again.

I've got nothing. 

For me, strumming and even a repetitive finger pattern while singing is no problem.  But there is just absolutely no way this side of heaven that I can play my bass and sing.  It ought to be easier, right?  Bass lines, especially for the kinds of songs I do, tend to be a lot simpler.  But, there it is. 

I'm sure others have got good advice.  I'm just suggesting that it's not an unusual problem and don't beat yourself up about it.  Just keep trying you best, and then read the quote from Mekidsmom in my signature line.

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude
  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: I'm needing help again.

Same here with the bass.  I sing on a couple of songs while I play bass, but you can guarantee that none of them are any more complex that simple walks.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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  • From: carson,washington
  • Registered: 2009-09-22
  • Posts: 350

Re: I'm needing help again.

Hey Tony, Wierd isn't it? I mean the way you hear it in your head but your head, fingers and voice are going
                different ways. Sometimes if you are concentrating too much on any ONE of the above the others
                get lost. Practice and take it slow and gradually work up to the normal tempo of the song. Maybe
                try using a metranome or drum machine if you have one. If not I'd recommend a drum machine
                cause they are fun to play along with while practicing. One other thing is not to concentrate too
                much on the quality of your singing voice. Work that later. Recording yourself is a great help also.

                                                                             Good luck, hope I gave you some ideas,     Mike

Our intuitions serve us well
  • From: Staffordshire,England
  • Registered: 2009-01-29
  • Posts: 61

Re: I'm needing help again.

Hi Toni, is it becuase you sound out of key? try using a capo on different fret possitions.

mercer's Website

  • From: Almancil, Algarve, Portugal
  • Registered: 2006-09-02
  • Posts: 6,205

Re: I'm needing help again.

You might try just humming the melody without singing the words first. If this works you can then try singing it.

Roger

"Do, or do not; there is no try"

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  • Registered: 2009-04-02
  • Posts: 1

Re: I'm needing help again.

mercer wrote:

Hi Toni, is it becuase you sound out of key? try using a capo on different fret possitions.

mercer i believe that would only confiuse the issue in my honest opinion..

i`d have to agree with papaguitar,,good sound advise


Tonyespo

judging by your post i assume that you are not playing all that long so without doubt i`d definately say all that you suffer from is lack of experience,,it really is as simple as that my friend..ive been playing quite a while now and at the minuite im teaching a friend of mine who has the same problem in fact i had the same problem myself when i first started to sing while playing and that was many years ago..here`s a tip PRACTICE !!! PRACTISE !!! PRACTISE !!!..there is absolutely NO substuitute for it..

what you also have to be careful of is,try not to pick a song that is (how shall i say it) ermmm a bit akward to play especially if your learning..try to chose a song that you are comfortable with singing and most importantly KNOW IT and KNOW IT WELL ! then add the chords to the song slowly as you progress  ,,you be amazed at the amount of guitar players that i meet that have a fair amount of talent YET can barely play more than 2 or 3 songs ALL THE WAY THROUGH..If your familiar with playing songs in different keys firstly learn the song in the original key so that you know the chords then pick a key that suits your voice and try learning it it that key.

Make good use of Youtube there are lots of decent guys on there who may already be playing the song/songs that you like were you could gain some inspiration and tips on how they are playing it..All in all have fun with it

hope this is of some help

8 Reply by wlbaye (edited by wlbaye 2010-03-18 22:56:19)

  • wlbaye
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  • From: Black Hills So Dak
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Re: I'm needing help again.

Hey Tony,

Awhile back we had a chordie member having trouble , with strumming and BensonP had put up a link to video with some strumming on it.
This video breaks this song down as good as any I've seen on Youtube , it takes a couple minutes into the video to get to the meat and tators but this is an excellent video on how to break a song down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E9cDyts … p;index=27

Later, Wayne P

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  • From: Alabama Gulf Coast
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Re: I'm needing help again.

Singing and playing are distractive of each other. You have to simplify your guitar playing when you sing - especially if you play bass. Play fewest possible notes. Try to keep you left hand on the fret board within four frets if possible.
Drill over and over until you can sing a song without guitar clinkers. Usually singing takes priority over strumming. Sing hard and try to put your guitar playing on automatic.
toots

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Ya'll wanna go down to the Guf?

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  • zguitar
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  • From: Mentone, Ca
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Re: I'm needing help again.

Glad to hear that you are making some progress Tony.

I agree with Papa, you can't concentrate on one thing too much. Your strumming has to be at the point where you don't have to think about what you're doing. When I learn a new song with a diff strum pattern I strum it to death before I try to sing along. Also, maybe try to say just the word that is at each chord change. That way there is still more strumming than singing. You can fill in the rest of the singing as you get better.  I don't know what songs your trying to sing, but I know a few that have a short strum pattern like the one your playing, and they are a little tough to sing. If you don't sing on the right beat it doesn't sound right. Or maybe like Roger said, humm it, then say just the word at each chord change.

It will come to you. Just keep pluggin. Look at where you were a couple months ago and where you are now.

Keep Rockin!!!!!!!!!!!
  • From: NY
  • Registered: 2009-08-26
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Re: I'm needing help again.

Awesome advise guys!  I don't think I can add much to it...  Humming along so you're concentrating on the strumming is an excellent one.... doing a song you already know really REALLY well is another excellent one (you know the words, you know how the words fit in the music... so concentration is only on the music!)... and SLOW IT DOWN a LOT so that you can do the strums and singing together.  Those are my favorites of the above (although... they are all good advice!). 

Other than that... I guess maybe try an even more simple strum pattern.  I ALWAYS start by just doing one or two strums with the words so I know WHERE the chord changes go (a song I know the words to really well) then work in a super simple pattern (the pattern I showed you in the video to the song Leaving on a Jet Plane... that's my "starter pattern" to just about every song)... THEN when I can do that and sing, I listen on youtube and find a strum pattern that I think will actually work with that particular song to sound "right", at least to me!  The link Wayne put up actually breaks the song down and does JUST THIS!  smile

One more comment... "Base, down/up" sounds like three beats... "most" songs (not all) are four beats to a measure (aka 4/4 time).  Of course, this depends on what song you're doing and how you're doing this strum pattern... but *maybe* you need another strum in there?  Base, down/up/down to keep yourself on track and not lose it while adding the singing?????

Of course... practice, practice, practice ... "Rome wasn't built in a day!"  OR... as Zurf likes my quote... have a beer first!  smile  LOL!

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

mekidsmom's Website

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-03-29
  • Posts: 953

Re: I'm needing help again.

Sometimes every word in a song dosent fit with a strum or beat, you have to squeeze a word in there sometimes, or the words start after a certain beat or after a certain beat to be able to keep time, at least thats what I've found, if I haven't explain this to well, or just flat wrong, please someone let me know because I struggled with this myself.

Cam

Keep a fire burning in your eyes
Pay attention to the open sky
You never know what will be coming down
  • From: carson,washington
  • Registered: 2009-09-22
  • Posts: 350

Re: I'm needing help again.

Hey Cam, Oh yea that's another great point! Phrasing. The ability to fit the song words into the musicical structure
               of the song. I'm sure there are words in this particular song Tony is working on that are given more
               or given less time in each measure. Also the sylables of words can confuse us a little. Even the simple
               task of breathing at the right moment so as you have enough breath to finish a long phrase.
       
               If anyones interested: Who'd a thunk.... but there's a book, "Singing For Dummies", that is available and is
               a good source. I have one.                   Mike

Our intuitions serve us well
  • mrjay
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Re: I'm needing help again.

Hey Tony,

When I try to get the rhythm of a particular song, often I'll play the song on radio / computer and play along with it on my guitar.

My first step is simply to try to get my right hand going while muting all the strings with my left. That way I concentrate on the strum solely and not get distracted by trying to remember the chords. This way, it'll sound more percussive and you can work on matching your beat to the song's without trying to hear the melody.

Once you got that down and feel comfortable with your rhythm, make sure you know how to form all the chords in the song and try to play with the chords.

Honestly, I think that the "right" way to do it would be the way that everyone else suggested because, eventually, you'll be able to play any song without having to practice with the music playing all the time. However, I think the method I described above is pretty effective when you're a beginner and are trying to learn proper rhythm and strumming.

Another thing, when you're practicing by yourself (no music playing along), take it VERY slow at first. Strum each chord once and sing each lyric that goes with the chord. This helps you to get used to knowing when the changes should be. Then, once you understand the changes, strum regularly but still at a slow pace. Once you feel confident, bring up the tempo.

Hope this helps.

J.

  • selso
  • selso
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Re: I'm needing help again.

mrjay wrote:

Hey Tony,

When I try to get the rhythm of a particular song, often I'll play the song on radio / computer and play along with it on my guitar.

My first step is simply to try to get my right hand going while muting all the strings with my left. That way I concentrate on the strum solely and not get distracted by trying to remember the chords. This way, it'll sound more percussive and you can work on matching your beat to the song's without trying to hear the melody.

Once you got that down and feel comfortable with your rhythm, make sure you know how to form all the chords in the song and try to play with the chords.

Honestly, I think that the "right" way to do it would be the way that everyone else suggested because, eventually, you'll be able to play any song without having to practice with the music playing all the time. However, I think the method I described above is pretty effective when you're a beginner and are trying to learn proper rhythm and strumming.

Another thing, when you're practicing by yourself (no music playing along), take it VERY slow at first. Strum each chord once and sing each lyric that goes with the chord. This helps you to get used to knowing when the changes should be. Then, once you understand the changes, strum regularly but still at a slow pace. Once you feel confident, bring up the tempo.

Hope this helps.

J.

That some pretty good advice if I do say so my self.

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  • Zurf
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Re: I'm needing help again.

selso wrote:

That some pretty good advice if I do say so my self.

Heck yeah it is. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude
  • From: Deep Run, NC
  • Registered: 2010-01-29
  • Posts: 90

Re: I'm needing help again.

I want to thank everyone and I mean EVERYONE for all of the great advice.  I made a copy and paste of each post in my word processor and printed them out.  Just when I was feeling good about not screwing up too many chord changes, I find this next hurdle.  I am working on doing some 3 chord songs at this time.  Okie From Muskogee, Amazing Grace, Silent Night, The Gambler.  Mostly C, D, G, A7 chord songs...  I cheat a little on the C chord.  When I play these songs and record them without music, they don't sound half bad to me.  I'm going to work with all of the advice you have given me and practice, practice, practice.  Thanks again everyone.

tonyespo / 63 year old NEWBEE

I better learn to play fast, I'm already an old fart.
  • Zurf
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Re: I'm needing help again.

You'll get there Tony.  Keep up the good work. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude
  • From: NY
  • Registered: 2009-08-26
  • Posts: 4,320

Re: I'm needing help again.

Tony, I think the BEST thing about guitar is that there is ALWAYS more to learn... sometimes it can be viewed as a hurdle, but if you look at it as an adventure and know that you will get over that hill and start looking forward to the next hill to get over (or hurdle)... that's when it really starts getting FUN!  It's not too easy, and it's not too hard... you'll get it!  smile  You've got a bunch of good chords to work with... look how much you've learned already!

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

mekidsmom's Website

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Re: I'm needing help again.

tonyespo wrote:

I'm going to . . . practice, practice, practice.  Thanks again everyone.

Tony:

I know EXACTLY what you're going through.  I can strum pretty well, and sing not quite as well, but when I combine the two, well, let's just say it's not pretty, but it's much better than a month ago.

As someone else said, both are mutually distracting, so the key is to remove one of the distractions and concentrate on the remaining one.  One thing I've found useful is to whistle or hum instead of singing.  It's more mindless.   Do this until the strumming pattern becomes engrained.  It may take dozens of hours of practice (at least it did for me and I'm still not great at it).  But eventually, you will be able to sing while maintaining a strumming rhythm.

One other trap to avoid:  Learn multiple strumming patterns.  otherwise, all of your songs will sound too much alike.

Good luck.

'Nom

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." - Despair, Inc.
  • From: NY
  • Registered: 2009-08-26
  • Posts: 4,320

Re: I'm needing help again.

Tony... I just happened upon this and thought of you... titled:  "Playing Guitar & Singing Tutorial part 1 - guitar lessons for beginners covers help" (there's a lot of explaining in part 1.  In part 2 he really gets further into how he breaks a song down).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFd_Qijj … re=related

And Part 2 is here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbAsCRDX … re=related

This guy does a LOT of tutorials on youtube!  smile

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

mekidsmom's Website

  • zguitar
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Re: I'm needing help again.

That guy is my favorite teacher!!! I visit his channel often.

Keep Rockin!!!!!!!!!!!
  • From: Deep Run, NC
  • Registered: 2010-01-29
  • Posts: 90

Re: I'm needing help again.

MeK, I have watched both YouTube links and all I can say is that guy is right on with what I was doing wrong.  I learned some chord changes, so then I started to add some strumming patters, but I wanted to sing at the same time...  He explained that you need to get good at one thing at a time.  I have put singing on the back burner until I can strum well.  Thanks so much for bringing these links to my attention.  Again Chordie members are THE BEST.  Someday I promise I will be able to answer questions for other newbees.

tonyespo / 63 year old NEWBEE

I better learn to play fast, I'm already an old fart.
  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2008-03-29
  • Posts: 953

Re: I'm needing help again.

Great Thing about Chordie

1- Good guitar 300.00 to ?
2-Great People- Free
3- Great advice-Priceless

Cam

Keep a fire burning in your eyes
Pay attention to the open sky
You never know what will be coming down
  • Registered: 2010-03-23
  • Posts: 5

Re: I'm needing help again.

Tony,
My advice and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee, but for me, when I was just starting and even now, 25 years later, I generally focus on one song at a time, that I am trying to learn, and hammering it into myself to the point where, when I finally learn it, I'm kind of sick of it. (How many grammatical errors there, btw?)
Anyhoo, even the great Tom Petty in his early days, when writing songs in his apartment, said that he would sit strumming and "A" and "E" for like 2 weeks. One day his neighbor said to him, "hey man, can't you play anything else?" LOL............
Point is, there are darn few shortcuts for any of us. It's mostly repetition, muscle memory, like that for me anyway. Maybe that's why us pickers hang together the way we do.
p.s. one of these days, go to a music store and try out some other guitars, in any price range. some of them are definitely easier to play and sound heavenly. If your going to stay with this, you deserve it.
Brad