• From: Bellevue, Idaho
  • Registered: 2009-10-31
  • Posts: 57

Topic: Chords, Scales & Modes

I can't believe I actually typed all this out. If you have any questions or if you would like to add onto anything go ahead. Sorry if it comes out uneven. There's really nothing i can do about it.

Chords:

Major                minor                7TH & 9TH (Dominate)
1    3    5        1    3-    5        1    3    5    7-    9(2)
I    III    V        I    III-    V        I    III    V    VII-    VIII (II)
C    E    G        C    D#    G        C    E    G    A#    D
G    B    D        G    A#    D        G    B    D    F    A
D    F#    A        D    F    A        D    F#    A    C    E
A    C#    E        A    C    E        A    C#    E    G    B
E    G#    B        E    G    B        E    G#    B    C    F#
B    D#    F#        B    D    F#        B    D#    F#    A    C#
F#    A#    C#        F#    A    C#        F#    A#    C#    E    E#

1    3    5        1    3-    5        1    3    5    7-    9(2)
I    III    V        I    III-    V        I    III    V    VII-    VIII (II)
C    E    G        C    Eb    G        C    E    G    Bb    D
F    A    C        F    Ab    C        F    A    C    Eb    G
Bb    D    F        Bb    Db    F        Bb    D    F    Ab    C
Eb    G    Bb        Eb    Gb    Bb        Eb    G    Bb    Db    F
Ab    C    Eb        Ab    B    Eb        Ab    C    Eb    Gb    Bb
Db    F    Ab        Db    E    Ab        Db    F    Ab    Cb    Eb

Augmented             Diminished
1    3    5+        1    3-    5-
I    III    V+        I     III-    V-
C    E    G#        C    D#    A#
G    B    D#        G    A#    F#
D    F#    A#        D    F    G#
A    C#    F        A    C    D#
E    G#    C        E    G    A#
B    D#    G        B    D    F
F#    A#    D        F#    A    C

1    3    5+        1    3-    5-
I    III    V+        I     III-    V-
C    E    A        C    Eb    Gb
F    A    Db        F    Ab    B
Bb    D    Gb        Bb    Db    E
Eb    G    B        Eb    Gb    A
Ab    C    E        Ab    B    D
Db    F    A         Db    E    G

Major Scales:
I    II    III    IV    V    VI    VII    VIII
C     D    E    F    G    A    B    C
G    A    B    C    D    E    F#    G
D    E    F#    G    A    B    C#    D
A    B    C#    D    E    F#    G#    A
E    F#    G#    A    B    C#    D#    E
B    C#    D#    E    F#    G#    A#    B
F#    G#    A#    B    C#    D#    E#    F#

I    II    III    IV    V    VI    VII    VIII
C    D    E    F    G    A    B    C
F    G    A    Bb    C    D    E    F
Bb    C    D    Eb    F    G    A    Bb
Eb    F    G    A    Bb    C    D    Eb
Ab    Bb    C    Db    Eb    F    G    Ab   
Db    Eb    F    Gb    Ab    Bb    C    Db

Modes                                              Espinoza    
Dorian                       1                I              happy, taming the passions
Hypodorian                2                II             serious and tearful
Phrygian                    3               III             inciting anger
Hypophrygian             4               IV            inciting delights, tempering fierceness
Lydian                       5                V            happy
Hypolydian                 6               VI            tearful and pious
Mixolydian                 7              VII           uniting pleasure and sadness
Hypomixolydian          8               VIII          very happy

Tonic                1    I
Super Tonic    2    II
Mediant            3    III   
Sub Dominant     4    IV
Dominant            5    V
Sub Mediant    6    VI
Leading Tone    7    VIII
Tonic                8    I

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TheOnlyTaylor's Website

  • From: South Wales. UK
  • Registered: 2009-09-28
  • Posts: 56

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

I think you should add explanations with each section, i understood the first bit but after that ?. what does anyone else think.

tonynulty's Website

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

That's an example of the complexity that can be derived from just a few simple rules.   At it's heart, everything there is derived from the major diatonic scale.

As a technical note, the modes are wrong.   There is no VIII (That's just the root again, and octave higher), and some of these modal names are duplicated or archaic. 

Ionian (a.k.a "major")                  I
Dorian                                        II             
Phrygian                                     III             
Lydian                                        IV
Myxolydian                                  V
Aolean (a.k.a. "minor")                VI
Locrian                                       VII

If you know that a major chord is made up of the I, III, and V notes of the major scale, you can use that exact same formula to construct triads from each of the modal scales.  This explains why some chords work over certain notes in certain keys.

For example, if you were to build a triad (1, 3, 5) out of D Dorian mode, you'd end up with D F A, which is a D minor chord.

All of the above comes from that.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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jerome.oneil's Website

4 Reply by tonynulty (edited by tonynulty 2010-03-17 20:54:59)

  • From: South Wales. UK
  • Registered: 2009-09-28
  • Posts: 56

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

Jerome, as you say to build a triad (1 3 5 )out of dorian mode, you would end up with D F A, which is a D minor chord, how do you know what  letter to start with for each mode. A.B.C.D.E.F.G. in dorian mode 1.3.5. D is 1, F is 3,  A is 5.

tonynulty's Website

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

This is why understanding scales is so critical.    All of the modes are based on some major scale.  D Dorian is based on C major,  as D is the second note of the C major scale.   So D Dorian shares all the same notes as C major.   E Phrygian would be based on C major, as would F Lydian.

C major is

C D E F G A B C D

D Dorian is

D E F G A B C D

E Phrygian is

E F G A B C D E

F Lydian is

F G A B C D E F

etc...

Make sense?
What you've started with is A minor (or Aolian), which is based on the VI of C major.   Take the 1, 3, 5 of that scale, and you end up with A C E, which is an A minor chord.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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jerome.oneil's Website

  • From: Bellevue, Idaho
  • Registered: 2009-10-31
  • Posts: 57

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

ya, I would've have explained that in my post but I had already spent two hours putting together all that info and I figured it would leave room for discussion if someone didn't understand that. Modes don't change the notes in the scale. The only thing they change is the tonic (or the root of the scale). correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry about mixing up VIII with I. I thought I fixed that before posting.

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TheOnlyTaylor's Website

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

It's not so much the tonic that changes, as that is simply identified by the name of the scale.  What changes is the interval pattern.   Just think of modes as shifting the two half step intervals up or down the scale, and you end up with different modes.

If we think of a major (Ionic) scale as the following interval pattern.

R W W H W W W H

Then Dorian mode would be

R W H W W H W W

Phrygian would be

R H W W H W W W

Etc.

Just as a note, the system you posted up is what the ancient greeks used.  They used micro-tonal scales, which is how you could come up with an VIII.  The modern diatonic scales we all know and love are it's direct descendant, which is why many of the modal names are shared.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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jerome.oneil's Website

  • From: Bellevue, Idaho
  • Registered: 2009-10-31
  • Posts: 57

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

oh, ok. I see what your saying. That doesn't surprise me at all, I was actually looking into that a while ago. thanks for the heads up.
I'm also thinking about figuring out what chords fit into what pattern.
Here's an example:
The tonic can always be played as a major chord, Major 7th, major 9th
and the Dominant(the 5th) can always be played a a 7th chord or a 9th
and the 3rd has to be a minor chord rather than a major to fit into that specific key, ect.
It might take me a while....

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TheOnlyTaylor's Website

  • From: A black hole in deep space
  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 7,865

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

not so Georgia,Abilene and a host of others use C to E or E to G# major (1,3 major) these are concidered outside chords smile 

TheOnlyTaylor wrote:

and the 3rd has to be a minor chord rather than a major to fit into that specific key, ect.
It might take me a while....

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Russell_Harding's Website

  • From: South Wales. UK
  • Registered: 2009-09-28
  • Posts: 56

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

The other week when we disscused chord progressions, we used the progression
1-4-5, why have we changed to 1-3-5 in this instance. tony.

tonynulty's Website

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

1 3 5 is a perfectly legitimate chord progression.   In C, it would be C Em G.    When Russell talks about "outside" chords, he's talking about playing chords that don't fall into key.

In other words, when you are playing in a key, "inside" chords would only be made up of the 7 notes that are in that key.   For example, in C major, all chords would be constructed of some selection of the notes

C D E F G A B

Using the modal discussion above, you can construct triads and 7s from that using only those notes.

However, using Russell's example,  going from C (C E G) to E major (E G# B) you can see that G# doesn't exist in the key of C.   To be "inside,"  or "in key" when playing an E based chord, it would need to be minor (E G B).

More to Russell's point, there is absolutely *nothing* wrong with that.   It's just good to know what you're doing, and why.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

  • From: South Wales. UK
  • Registered: 2009-09-28
  • Posts: 56

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

Thank you very much for all your explanations. Tony Nulty.

tonynulty's Website

  • From: Bellevue, Idaho
  • Registered: 2009-10-31
  • Posts: 57

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

I'm pretty sure a chord or note played outside of the key is called "non-functional"

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TheOnlyTaylor's Website

  • Registered: 2007-11-24
  • Posts: 4

Re: Chords, Scales & Modes

I am a guitarist and teacher of many years.  To initially negate these very involved and confusing debates especially to the newbies, I simply instruct (those who are ready), to "Call any chord a Key.  Key implies scale.  Construct the chord (major or minor) from that major scale.  If a minor is needed, find the third and flatten it".  (Thus; the chord spelling)!  This also applies of course to any extended note(s), e.g., C7-9, G7#5b9, etc.  It works just fine for the *initial* introduction to chord construction.