Topic: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

There seems to be a relation and a theory, (Fibonacci theory, I believe) used in music.
Did :
1) math ---> music or
2) music --> math?

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Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

Music is mathematics.  Mathematics deals with the relationships of intervals.  Music deals with the relationships of intervals.  They are different expressions of the same thing.

- Zurf

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Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

gitaardocphil wrote:

There seems to be a relation and a theory, (Fibonacci theory, I believe) used in music.
Did :
1) math ---> music or
2) music --> math?

I think it was Pythagoras, not Fibonacci.
I think Pythagoras once said that music should be studied through numbers and the mind, rather than through the heart. I can't say there would be many who would agree with that.
As for 1) or 2) I would say it is neither. Or both!
Both maths and music have existed side by side and are related.
I agree with what Zurf says.
Music can be analysed through maths and be found to depend on ratios.
More specifically, the intervals we tend to find pleasing have simple ratios between their frequencies.
The musical scales seem to have evolved from this same idea.

Why, for example, do we find that singing in octaves sounds "right"? Is it just a coincidence that the notes have a frequency ratio of exactly 2 to 1?
In the big scheme of things does it really matter? Either way, it is fascinating.

Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

Hey Guitardocphil, Zurf and Stonebridge!

Interesting one! cool

I was thinking Pythagoras meself while I was reading the first post, Stonebridge and indeed, you are right that Pythagoras was the first to link Maths and Music (recorded, at any rate.) He was the one who found that if you had a weight hanging from a string, if you halved the distance of tension, you ended up with the same note an octave higher (12th fret to open string) and if you doubled the weight but kept the length the same, you have the same increase in octave (increasing tension = tuning an octave higher than concert pitch, but I will not be held accountable for broken strings if you wish to try THIS!).

So, yeah as far as root maths contained in music - Pythagorus!

But Lieven did mention Fibonacci who, for anyone who aren't knowledge like I can (SDH*,) came up with the sequence whereby you start with 1 and add it to the number before it (in the first case 0) and carry on adding the last two numbers - 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 7 etc.

Now if you look at that a musical element is straightaways visible - 1, 3 and 5 are root third and fifth that make up all major chords!

Take any major key and play the sequence (1 for root, etc) and play 1, 1, 2, 3, 5 - musical or not? If you like it, does it work with minors/others too? If you don't like it, does it work with minor/other keys better?

As for which came first, Maths or Music, I can't help thinking that early man would have had to have communicated "Two mamoths over there!" before they'd have sung/danced their Victory Kill song/danced and their Haven't We Got Full Bellies song/lethargic dance after that!

Interesting!



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Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

Very interesting question Doc, judging by the answers so far it appears it is one of those simplistically difficult questions that boggle my mind.
I'm still having a hard time with what came first...the chicken or the egg. lol

Good One smile

Kenny

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6 (edited by Stonebridge 2009-08-09 14:14:41)

Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

KajiMa wrote:

I was thinking Pythagoras meself while I was reading the first post, Stonebridge and indeed, you are right that Pythagoras was the first to link Maths and Music (recorded, at any rate.) He was the one who found that if you had a weight hanging from a string, if you halved the distance of tension, you ended up with the same note an octave higher (12th fret to open string) and if you doubled the weight but kept the length the same, you have the same increase in octave (increasing tension = tuning an octave higher than concert pitch, but I will not be held accountable for broken strings if you wish to try THIS!).

You'll certainly break a few strings there Kajima! wink You need to increase the tension by 4 times to get the octave.

http://www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T3.html

It's heavy going reading the link, by the way.

I'm not surprised the Fibonacci series might be linked somewhere because it seems to pop up in a number of interesting places.

Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

Again, my theory right but numbers wrong! It must be four times the weight on the string too?

I did say - aren't knowledge like I can! big_smile big_smile big_smile

DOH!

<-----<< On an even field, only talent prevails! >>----->
   Gans Gwarak da yn dorn yu lel, gwyr lowen an golon!
        >>-----> [color=#FF0000]Rudhes[/color] hag [color=yellow]Owres[/color], Kajima <-----<<

Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

A most excellent link, Stonebridge! cool

<-----<< On an even field, only talent prevails! >>----->
   Gans Gwarak da yn dorn yu lel, gwyr lowen an golon!
        >>-----> [color=#FF0000]Rudhes[/color] hag [color=yellow]Owres[/color], Kajima <-----<<

Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

Yes, that web site has a load of stuff on the mathematics of scales, pitch and frequency too. Theres also a bit on tone woods.
It's great if you really want to get into the technical side of things. Not for the faint hearted though! wink

Re: MATHEMATICS & MUSIC

Yeah, Fibonacci figures in lots of stuff, music being just one!

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