• Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Topic: Expecting things for free

Hello,

I would like to get some opinions on the subject of expecting things for free. 

It seems we are now in a world where just about everyone expects to get things for free.  This seems to be the case with the younger generation and is the direction the world is going.

THEN:

In my experience, I had to spend a ton of money over the years buying magazines, books, methods etc.  not to mention paying for guitar lessons before the digital age changed everything. 

I also had to buy the music if I wanted to play the guitar magazine tab along with the recording.  No special software that plays the tab, just old shool learning how to play guitar.  I also learned the art of patience, which is just about non existent today. 

Have you ever heard of the term "I don't know what it is, but I want it".  This is purely a lack respect for things and just wanting things that you don't need (oh yea I forgot to mention I want it NOW!)

If I didn't have the money for lessons, guess what, the my teacher said "come back when you can afford the lessons". 

That sounds kinda rough, but think of the guitar teachers point of view.  He was a graduate from Berklee College of Music and had to pay back his tuition. 

I even asked another Berklee College graduate for a FREE guitar lesson when I was completing my Electronic Engineering Degree and guess what he said "I had to pay for college so why should I give you a free lesson"?  I said because "I want to take sort of a test drive lesson".  His response was "I didn't get that type of test drive in Berklee, why should you?"

This is when people actually valued their learning experience because they had to pay for it in money and time.

I understand how to value someones time and actually pay for it.  Things have changed quite a bit since then.

When I was learning to play guitar the sheetmusic, recording industry and other guitar related compainies were thriving and doing well. 


NOW:

Just about everyone expects some things for FREE nowadays.  Some people go as far as lying and saying they can't afford lessons and most of the time someone comes to the rescue and bails someone out (yes people lie about things like this just for freebies). 

Look at justinguitar.com saying if you can't afford lessons then there are free lessons available. 

There are some free lessons, but there is a blurb asking for donations and there are quite a few lessons that are for sale not to mention the google ads.  This is an indirect way to make money and the FREE statement is not entirely true.

Not everybody is making a comfortable living and can afford to give things away for free. 

I am sure there will be quite a bit of negative resonses, but be honest so we can all make sense of this valid and true post.

Thanks

Steve

  • Zurf
  • Zurf
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  • Registered: 2007-06-27
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Re: Expecting things for free

Sure.  You have to pay for some things.  And sometimes you don't.  Wanting something free doesn't mean you'll get it free.  You gave examples from your life as to when folks wanted things free "way back when" but seem to think it's a new phenomenon.  You said they asked for free stuff and didn't get it.  The teachers turned them down.  So, you see, it's not a new phenomenon, and the appropriate response hasn't changed much either.  It's usually "no", just like it was before. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude
  • From: Tennessee
  • Registered: 2007-08-04
  • Posts: 436

Re: Expecting things for free

I remember when water and tv used to be free... smile

  • From: A black hole in deep space
  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 7,865

Re: Expecting things for free

Steve whats your point? it seems you are trying to rationalize your reasons for the same topic you opened in the Chordie editors forum of charging a fee for your input my response is the same no, that's why we have a theory forum it would be no different if I charged to download all the Audacity  tutorials I offer free and to date over a thousand downloads have been served by my mediafire account free to members plus several hundred photos and mp3's of original material as I see it there will always be sites that charge for lessons or services but Chordie is special its like family,I see nothing wrong with making a buck if we had a classified forum perhaps all manner of merch could be offered to members from lessons to instruments and even links to songs for sale but since all advertising for lessons is paid for at present it seems unlikely.

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Russell_Harding's Website

  • Zurf
  • Zurf
  • Blunt but well meaning moderator
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  • From: Virginia, USA
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Re: Expecting things for free

Oh, well if that's the case, then my point stands.  If someone doesn't care to share their knowledge here, then they shouldn't share it.  If they think someone's asking them for free input, then the answer ought to be no.  But if you come around to a place where people do share their learning and experience freely and expect to be selling something, then guess what?  That "no" thing goes two ways.  Just because someone wants to sell something doesn't mean that anyone's buying.

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude
  • upyerkilt
  • upyerkilt
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Re: Expecting things for free

freebies are always good, everyone likes something that is free, even if it is useless!
this in my experience is more towards the older generation. Now please do not think I am meaning every O.A.P as I know a lot that will take nothing for nothing.

When I worked in A garden centre for 11 years we always thought of ways of getting more punters through the door as does every company trying to make money. makes sense!
The best way we handled this even though not always successful was to advertise in the local paper ( and hopefully get the ad cheap as we pleaded we were a charity run business for disabeld ex-servicemen) We advertised a free bottle of baby bio plant food which would cost us about 20p per bottle since we bought so much in or got it on offer from the supplier.
Our advert would say spend over £10 and get a FREE bottle of plant food. At 9am we would have a queue of old biddies standing with their coupons that they needed thinking we would run out of the stuff.
And when they had enough items to get over the £10 and standing at the till they were telling the staff how they were not to forget the plant food.
This did not happen once or twice, this happened a lot with different offers all free or Buy one get one free (aka BOGOF). Sometimes if we never had a lot of free items the advert would say " while stocks last" if someone came and they could not get it even if a few weeks later they would let us know how unhappy they were, how they feel they have been cheated to visit and spend money to get something free.
My question to that to them was if you didnt need it, why buy it? why buy something just to get something free?. Sometimes they would reply " I might use it but I came here for it, I could have went elsewhere" So no matter they were going to buy it anyway.

I am so glad I got away from the general public, what a pain in the rear end they are. I hope I dont meet any of the general public again lol lol
seriously though freebies are good.
And as for mentioning yet again about paying for things here or getting it for free. I like chordie the way it is and the only way Choride would ask for money I tihnk is if it really had to for its survival. But as for paying for advice that most give out in chordie then that is just pure urine man. that advice will always be free in here.

Stopry over lol

Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending
  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: Expecting things for free

Russell_Harding wrote:

Steve whats your point? it seems you are trying to rationalize your reasons for the same topic you opened in the Chordie editors forum of charging a fee for your input my response is the same no,

That wasn't for my input, that was in case there was an interest in having lessons taught by chordie members that would share the revenue with the lesson originator and the chordie website owner.  As I stated in that thread it was merely a suggestion.


I have made a few posts here that were re directed to sites that ask for donations and some actually have lessons for sale.  I offered the help for free and re direction links seem to be in the best interest of the person re directing the links. 

I am just trying to make sense of the FREE things that are not realy being FREE (asking for donations, having some lessons free with other lessons paid, advertising on the sites).

I thought this was not an acceptable practice since it realy is an in direct way of asking for money with some free stuff mixed in.

Thanks

Steve

  • arkady
  • arkady
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Re: Expecting things for free

canudigit wrote:

I am just trying to make sense of the FREE things that are not realy being FREE (asking for donations, having some lessons free with other lessons paid, advertising on the sites).

I thought this was not an acceptable practice since it realy is an in direct way of asking for money with some free stuff mixed in.

Thanks

Steve

I personally can’t see anything wrong with a free website asking for a voluntary donation and have links to paying sites after all we all have choice and if someone wants to contribute to a site which helps him or entertains him then that’s up to the individual.
Links don't have to be followed on a site and if they are then they don't have to take up whats on offer....
ark

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: Expecting things for free

So if I was to put up a website that has free guitar lessons with a blurb about donations, that has advertisement and most of the lessons are pay lessons, I can post a link here at chordie?

Once again, I did not ask for any kind of money for sharing my knowledge here at chordie.

Just trying to find a common ground for links that are in directly linked to money making sites.

Thanks

Steve

  • From: Madeira Beach, Florida
  • Registered: 2007-12-05
  • Posts: 3,312

Re: Expecting things for free

canudigit wrote:

So if I was to put up a website that has free guitar lessons with a blurb about donations, that has advertisement and most of the lessons are pay lessons, I can post a link here at chordie?

Steve

No - That would be spam.

You seem to be commenting on justin sandercoe's excellent site. Please note he does not post here with links, nor does (as far I know) anybody associated with his site. His site is often recommended by chordie regulars to beginners seeking lessons or advice. While justin's site does have a bit of advertising and offers dvd's and other items for sale, he has a huge amount of content that is totally free and supported by donations.

I'm sure that if you were to offer a similar or better product than mr. sandercoe, your site would also receive recommendations from others. Otherwise, if you have a site you wish to promote, please contact Per for advertising opportunities.

Rule No. 1 - If it sounds good - it is good!

11 Reply by canudigit (edited by canudigit 2009-07-28 20:52:54)

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: Expecting things for free

That was just a generalization and thanks for the recomendation to contact Per for advertising opportunities smile.   

If you think about it, expecting things free is actually where the world is going sort of like a feeling of entitlement.  I can see a world where there will be no value in working. 

Software developers will stop developing software because of all the pirates giving their hard work away for free.  People teaching for free so there will be no need for teachers to work for pay. 

What I am trying to say is I have and still do pay $ my dues, like many others, which has a direct effect on the growth of companies like guitar magazines, books, videos, software etc.

Now the tables have turned to where the majority of people expect things for free which will in turn have a negative effect on the growth of the same very compainies and anyone who has a passion to succed.  Why work when someone is giving it for free. 

I look forward to hearing your responses

Thanks

Steve

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2007-02-08
  • Posts: 1,914

Re: Expecting things for free

Every point has two sides.... You can say that everyone expects stuff for free or You could say that no one want's to help without gaining something in return.... Who's worst the one that want's it free or the one that thinks everything deserves something in return? I've posted or sent well over a hundred tutorials/lessons online over the past couple of years for fellow chordie members, youtubers, AGFrs, and pretty much anybody else that asked me. I've never asked for a dime, though money has been offered to me by some. I do it to help inspire others to play music....Period. A nice "Thank You" is all I every expect.... I always just incourage them to share what ever they learned with others. IMO Helping your fellow man with no material gain is a positive direction for the world to go...

[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
[/color][/b]         [b]Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...[/b]

Guitarpix's Website

  • From: Tennessee
  • Registered: 2007-08-04
  • Posts: 436

Re: Expecting things for free

How much are these sites going to pay chordie to post a link?...cant have anything for free can we...

14 Reply by canudigit (edited by canudigit 2009-07-28 21:24:01)

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: Expecting things for free

This is a good thread to see other points of view like Guitarpix smile.   

If we ALL had your point of view Guitarpix there would be no progress.  If we ALL worked for free then some would work while others feed off of the workers hard work sort of like "socialism" which has never worked. 

Thanks,

Steve

  • From: A black hole in deep space
  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 7,865

Re: Expecting things for free

I'm not promoting socialism but your definition is inaccurate this is from Wikipedia
Socialism refers to any one of various theories of economic organization advocating public or cooperative worker self-ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2][3] Modern socialism originated in the late 18th-century intellectual and working class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and become the transitional stage from capitalism to communism.[4][5]

The utopian socialists, including Robert Owen, tried to found self-sustaining socialist communities within a capitalist society. Henri de Saint Simon, the first individual to coin the term socialism, was the original thinker who advocated technocracy and industrial planning. The first socialists predicted a world improved by harnessing technology and combining it with better social organization, and many contemporary socialists share this belief.[6][7] Early socialist thinkers tended to favor an authentic meritocracy combined with rational social planning, while many modern socialists have a more egalitarian approach.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, creates an unequal society, and does not provide equal opportunities for everyone in society. Therefore socialists advocate the creation of a society in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly based on the amount of work expended in production, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how and to what extent this could be achieved.

Socialism is not a concrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split between reformists and the revolutionaries on how a socialist economy should be established. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Socialists inspired by the Soviet model of economic development have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. Others, including Yugoslavian, Hungarian, German and Chinese Communists in the 1970s and 1980s, instituted various forms of market socialism, combining co-operative and state ownership models with the free market exchange and free price system (but not free prices for the means of production).[8]

Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies, with private ownership of property and of profit-making business. Social democrats also promote tax-funded welfare programs and regulation of markets. Many social democrats, particularly in European welfare states, refer to themselves as "socialists", introducing a degree of ambiguity to the understanding of what the term means.

Libertarian socialism (including social anarchism and libertarian Marxism) rejects state control and ownership of the economy altogether and advocates direct collective ownership of the means of production via co-operative workers' councils and workplace democracy

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Russell_Harding's Website

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2007-02-08
  • Posts: 1,914

Re: Expecting things for free

Or ,if we all had that view, than we would all help one another and there would be MAJOR progress.  It's never really "free" if the favor is returned. It's a cycle man...   Agreed the world will probably never be that perfect..
  But we're talking about free guitar lessons... Just because one or two may leach, does that mean I shouldn't help anyone because "You never can tell who is lying about being able to afford it" I don't think I could live my life not trusting anyone because there are a few who deceive. But to each his own. I just take it one day at a time and do what I feel is right. Just an old hippie I guess smile  It just seems odd that with all the things going on in the world that people can complain about free sharing and others using that shared knowledge... -Pix

[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
[/color][/b]         [b]Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...[/b]

Guitarpix's Website

  • From: A black hole in deep space
  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 7,865

Re: Expecting things for free

Need I remind you China the largest and most economically secure nation on this planet not to mention industrial wealth practices Socialism I hope they dont call in there note on us concidering the amount of our debt we owe

canudigit wrote:

"socialism" which has never worked.

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Russell_Harding's Website

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: Expecting things for free

They also practice communism sad. 

Wow you guys are rough . 

Russell_Harding how come you didn't just post the link from wikipedia instead of copying and pasting it here?  Just kidding yikes.

I hear what you are all saying and appreciate your point of view smile.  Instead of a chat this turned into a little spat.  I consider this to be a learning experience and was just trying to see where others are coming from.

The bottom line seems to be do whatever you want to as long as you do not infringe against someone.  Even with that, there are some who will cheat the system.

Thanks

Steve

19 Reply by canudigit (edited by canudigit 2009-07-28 22:25:14)

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: Expecting things for free

Guitarpix wrote:

It just seems odd that with all the things going on in the world that people can complain about free sharing and others using that shared knowledge... -Pix

I have answered posts and also put up a free lesson here at chordie and will continue to help when I can.  I did not ask for anyting in return.  Once again I am just trying to see where you are all coming from.  This is a discusion which ends up with differences in opinion.

Thanks

Steve

  • From: North Carolina
  • Registered: 2007-02-08
  • Posts: 1,914

Re: Expecting things for free

canudigit wrote:
Guitarpix wrote:

It just seems odd that with all the things going on in the world that people can complain about free sharing and others using that shared knowledge... -Pix

I have answered posts and also put up a free lesson here at chordie and will continue to help when I can.  I did not ask for anyting in return.  Once again I am just trying to see where you are all coming from.  This is a discusion which ends up with differences in opinion.

Thanks

Steve

No worries Steve, I didn't mean that as a jab toward you personally. Just expressing some thoughts... If you remember, I commented on your first lesson and commended you for sharing your knowledge freely. -Pix

[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
[/color][/b]         [b]Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...[/b]

Guitarpix's Website

  • Registered: 2007-09-01
  • Posts: 71

Re: Expecting things for free

Thanks Guitarpix, I do remember and will continue to contribute when I can  smile.

Steve

  • From: A black hole in deep space
  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 7,865

Re: Expecting things for free

Actually they dont need to much practice there very good at it,the reason I did not post the link instead of pasting is for the same reason you posted your scales I wanted you to read it

canudigit wrote:

They also practice communism sad. 

Wow you guys are rough . 

Russell_Harding how come you didn't just post the link from wikipedia instead of copying and pasting it here?

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Russell_Harding's Website

  • Registered: 2006-03-04
  • Posts: 2,662

Re: Expecting things for free

Steve,

I knew I smelled a spamrat............   No one ever wishes to be fed when they're not hungry, and then suckered into paying for a meal they didn't want or need in the first place only adds insult to injury.........

Let me tell you how teaching for pay works.  Ready? One gets students from their publicly displayed ability, and proper advertising ( business cards, promo pages, references from other people and/or past/present students, CD's etc.) at said venue(s). Upon initial consulation with potential student, the potential instructructor either accepts, declines, or refers student to another instructor better suited to students' needs. And sorry to offend you but the only person I've heard about you from is, well, you.

One will never have succes by tooting ones' own horn without solid proof of said tooting. No one will ever recruit paying customers by giving A-G and octave numbering for free, and then request money for additional tutelage. Kids are learning this stuff in public schools at age 5 or 6!!!  'Ya get where I'm comin' from?

Get your stuff together, play some gigs, get your face and name out there where you live. You'll get students, they'll come to you, they'll tell their friends, and they'll tell their friends, etc......

Best of luck,
SouthPaw41L

Give everything but up.
  • From: Western Oregon,US
  • Registered: 2008-07-22
  • Posts: 2,498

Re: Expecting things for free

Wow Steve, this thread really got complex in a hurry didn't it?

  Putting all the "mercenary aspects" aside for a moment... may I express my feelings on the subject?  This is only my viewpoint and reflects on none of the views expressed to this level of the discussion.

  Like you Steve, back when we were first learning, there were no resources available such as the internet, and every lesson learned was either bought in the form of services from an instructor, or via purchase of some text based tutorial.  Times have changed, and remembering all the people who gave their time and patience answering my "stupid" questions, or helping me through the difficult stages of early learning, tolerating me sitting in on jam sessions that I was poorly prepared for, and such.  My participation in Chordie is kind of a way of "paying it forward" to those who are now where I was back then

  Advise and suggestions when I feel they might be of value, and not commenting if my contribution is not an improvement on what has already been said.  Given at face value freely because music is a meaningful part of my life, and a gift to be shared.

  Opinions may vary, but this planet would be awfully boring if we were all clones.

  Just my $.02 worth.

Thanks All &
Take Care;
Doug

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare

25 Reply by StranSongs (edited by StranSongs 2009-07-29 07:10:16)

  • From: Belfast
  • Registered: 2009-03-31
  • Posts: 330

Re: Expecting things for free

Lessons, help and criticism on Chordie isn't given for free - it's given for love. That would be love of the guitar.

Saying that it's for free feels like it's being cheapened, given a value and stuck on a shelf - the cheap shelf.

There's no point in sitting like Canute, ordering the waves to turn back. Access to information without payment is what the internet is about. That in itself has created huge markets for guitars, strings, cd's, instruction videos, capos, tuners, recorders, gig bags etc.

Also how many more guitar teachers are now teaching because of the market built by the songs and lessons given for love? Maybe we should criticise the guitar teachers who don't want to put the effort into building their own teaching businesses - going fishing without bait.

How many of us would never have picked up a guitar or gone back to it if we had not been able to get our hands on songs to play. The old systems of sheet music and so on restricted the development of that market.

"Don't play what's there, play what's not there." Miles Davis

StranSongs's Website