Re: Quick Scales and Key question

lespaul69 wrote:

each major key has a relative minor which is the 6th tone or degree of the scale. So for the key of "G" the relative minor is E
(Note that sometimes the 2nd degree note can be a minor but it is very rare)

Relative Major and Minor
               A            F#
               B           G#
               C          A
                D          B
                E           C#
                F           D
                G           E


Respectfully,
Les

The second degree from a triad standpoint is always minor.  From a scale standpoint, its Dorian mode.  If you build a triad from the I III and V of a Dorian scale, you get a minor chord.   The natural minor scale, Aeolian, is built from the VI.

Modal scales are a great tool to know and understand.  I've been noodling on Phrygian mode, the modal scale built from the III (and also a minor triad) for weeks.  It's got that cool funky minor western sound.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

? How many songs can you give me that is in the key of "G" that has a Bm in them. I can only think of one " Pirates look at 40" by jimmy buffett G-C-G-Am-Bm
I don't think you modes has anything to do with the chords that go with a key. how ever when you play an open "g" chord on the gutiar you  do use an open "b" string

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

lespaul69 wrote:

? How many songs can you give me that is in the key of "G" that has a Bm in them. I can only think of one " Pirates look at 40" by jimmy buffett G-C-G-Am-Bm
I don't think you modes has anything to do with the chords that go with a key. how ever when you play an open "g" chord on the gutiar you  do use an open "b" string

The modal scales have *everything* to do with the chords that go within a major key.  Lets use the key of G as an example.

G major (Ionian mode)    G  A  B  C  D  E  F#   G   
Gmajor chord (I III V)     G      B       D

A Dorian (II of G major)   A  B  C  D   E  F#  G  A
Aminor chord (I III  V)     A      C       E

B Phrygian (III G major)   B  C  D  E  F#  G    A  B
B minor (III G major)       B      D      F#

C Lydian (IV G major)       C  D  E  F#  G  A  B  C
C major (IV G major)        C      E     G

D Myxolidan (V G major)   D  E  F#  G  A  B  C  D
D major (V G major)         D      F#      A

E Aeolian (VI G major)      E   F#  G  A  B  C  D  E
E minor  (VI G major)       E         G      B

F# Locrian (VII G major)   F#  G  A  B  C  D  E  F#
F# dim      (VII G major)  F#       A      C

So as you can see, if you take the I III and V of *any* of a major scales related modal scale, you'll end up with it's related chord.   Likewise, if you add the VII, you'll end up with the appropriate VII chord, rather than the triad.

That's why you have B minor and F# dim.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

29 (edited by SouthPaw41L 2009-06-20 18:13:50)

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

lespaul69 wrote:

? How many songs can you give me that is in the key of "G" that has a Bm in them. I can only think of one " Pirates look at 40" by jimmy buffett G-C-G-Am-Bm
I don't think you modes has anything to do with the chords that go with a key. how ever when you play an open "g" chord on the gutiar you  do use an open "b" string

jerome.oneil is giving you examples of individual notes within a particular mode. This is helpful to some but for the common beginner/intermediate sittin' around with a few beers and good friends, talk of  theory regarding verbal application of lydian, myxolidan, aeolian, locrian, etc, etc, etc, rarely comes up. Practical application, in regular dude/gal speak is often much more effective and applicable. I'll attempt to expand;

Bm does go quite nicely with G. Bob Seger's ( Against The Wind) and The Band's( The Weight) are  two prime examples of how nicely Bm flows with G.
Seger-Against The Wind;
G Bm C G D C ( That's the first stanza of the verse progression)
The Band- The Weight ( Take A Load off Fanny)
G Bm C ( verse progression).

Next time you feel like kickin' it around a little with your guitar and  a completely open mind try this progression; Do it slow, do it fast do it however you 'unt to.
G Am Bm C D Em F G

and then this one;
E F#m G#m A B C#m D#+( X 6 7 8 0 0)really cool chord! E

and one more to fardle around with;
A Bm C#m D E F#m G A

I guess what I'm tryin' to say, and I'm paraphrasing, is this;
It's yo thang, do whatch ya wanna do.........

Just have fun  and stay loose...

And if you need a great reference tool for chords I highly recommend this;
http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/

Peace and Guitars,
SouthPaw41L

Give everything but up.

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

Theory is useless without a practical application, so thanks for providing that, Toney.   "Take a Load Off Fanny" is a great tune.  big_smile

For myself, it's much easier for me to remember the modal constructs because it's always the I III and V, and the modal scales are just more fretboard patterns.  Trying to remember a minor as a "flatted third" and a diminished as a "monkeyd up fifth" is often more than my brain can handle.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

For the guy who said it's your thing, that is kinda a yes and a no.
There are rules of the road that need to be followed, or you play something that sounds like a train wreck. Theory is like learning to spell. After you have master spelling then you can start writing your book on what ever subject you want. (ect blues, country rock)
To be more plain spoken just because you are per say writing a song,you just can't use any ol chord or just the ones that you can make or for the beginner what just sounds good to you. Because what you might think sounds great does not sound that a way to other people that has been playing longer. Also as you start playing out and sitting in with bands there is a protocol that you will be expected follow.

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

More about modes.
1) A mode is a varation of a scale you probably already know
it is used to ift over a chord or chords example if you are playing over a G7 chord the G major will conflict with one of the notes in the chord. The G7 chord uses a natural F note Note an F#.
What to do~ Answer You use the mixolydian  which contain all the notes of the G major except the F# it is replaced with a F natural
Inclusion you use modes to fit the key I don't think you use the modes to pick out the chords in a key


1  2 3 4  5 6  7   1            (use 1-4-5 off chords 2 & 6minor)
G A B C D E F# G                    G C D               A    E minor

P.S Thanks to all for replying I have learned form reading and replying and hope I have shared some useful information

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

lespaul69 wrote:

More about modes.
1) A mode is a varation of a scale you probably already know
it is used to ift over a chord or chords example if you are playing over a G7 chord the G major will conflict with one of the notes in the chord. The G7 chord uses a natural F note Note an F#.
What to do~ Answer You use the mixolydian  which contain all the notes of the G major except the F# it is replaced with a F natural
Inclusion you use modes to fit the key I don't think you use the modes to pick out the chords in a key


1  2 3 4  5 6  7   1            (use 1-4-5 off chords 2 & 6minor)
G A B C D E F# G                    G C D               A    E minor

P.S Thanks to all for replying I have learned form reading and replying and hope I have shared some useful information

The modes are exactly how those chords are derived. 

Lets use your example again, mixolydian over dominant 7s.

Why is it you suppose mixolydian sounds so good over a dom7 chord?  It's because the dominant 7 chord is what you get if you add that seventh from the modal scale, just like I demonstrated above.

G mixolydian (and G7) is derived from C major (or Ionian, in modal vernacular).   G is the V of that scale  and the two modes share the exact same key signature.

C Ionian        = C D E F G A B C
G myxolydian = G A B C D E F G

G7 is   the I  III  V  and VII of the G mixolydian scale, G  B  D   F.    That's why the scale works over that chord.  It makes use of the same notes as found in the modal scale.  They didn't just make it up to play over dom7.  Instead,   dom7 is derived from it.

If you know your modal scales, you'll never have to guess at how to construct a chord, nor will you ever have to guess at what scale to play over what chord progression in any song.  Those seven modal scales make up the very foundation of music.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

jerome.oneil wrote:

Well, diminished chords are weird.  If you consider the inversions, there is really only four of them.  I sat through a workshop with a bunch of freaky jazz guys once and they spent a lot of time on it.   They'd break out some crazy stuff, and noodle all day, because the scale simple doesn't resolve anywhere.

It's just bizzare, but when it's done right, I like it.  big_smile

I've just recently gotten into modes. I find Locrian is a good tension builder until you want to resolve back to the root. It makes the music feel like you're building up to something but not quite getting there.

Re: Quick Scales and Key question

mrjay wrote:
jerome.oneil wrote:

Well, diminished chords are weird.  If you consider the inversions, there is really only four of them.  I sat through a workshop with a bunch of freaky jazz guys once and they spent a lot of time on it.   They'd break out some crazy stuff, and noodle all day, because the scale simple doesn't resolve anywhere.

It's just bizzare, but when it's done right, I like it.  big_smile

I've just recently gotten into modes. I find Locrian is a good tension builder until you want to resolve back to the root. It makes the music feel like you're building up to something but not quite getting there.

Yup.  You can noodle all day long in Locrian, you just can't ever find a way to stop it.  big_smile

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]