• Registered: 2006-03-04
  • Posts: 2,662

Topic: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

Greetings all,

I've noticed a huge decline lately in songs submitted to this section(songwriting) since Chordie added the " poetry" section. Like it not, agree or disagree, there is a huge difference between songs and poems. It's kinda like categorizing DJs in the in the same fold as musicians. And any of you folks who play guitar for an hour vs. mashing the play button on the CD/IPOD/album/cassette and/or 8track, or whatever know exactly where I'm coming from.  Any guitar player can do a DJ's job but very few(if any,haha) DJ's can do a guitar players job, ya know what I'm sayin' ?

       One can argue 'till they're blue in the face but poetry is poetry, and it has its place. But songwriting is songwriting and a song consists of a poetic story and melodic accompaniment( unless instrumentals are slated in said  discussion). 

            I'm thinking that songwriters are gonna be more likely to submit their songs where the totality of the song( ie lyrics and chords)are exclusive to the creation of their song. I personally think the addition of poems has soured some/many songwriters and their outlook on the intent of the forum. Call me pig headed or unwilling to open my mind to something different but there are 100's of poetry exclusive sites out there in cyber land that one can express their inner words.

       Subsequently, many of the previous contributors here on Chordie have gone elsewhere. ( fo' real)This is not a slam on the fine folks who run the poetry forum, I'm sure they're doing the best they can at what they do but I personally miss some of the previous songwriters who have chosen to take their tremendous talents elsewhere........

Any thoughts............

Give everything but up.

2 Reply by alansheeran (edited by alansheeran 2009-03-21 07:51:36)

  • From: Belfast, Northern Ireland
  • Registered: 2006-03-04
  • Posts: 338

Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

So re-name the Poem section "Lyrics" - and leave this non-issue behind. I don't see how a poem section can put anyone off writing songs.

I tend to consider both words and music essential to a song ( and that's not to suggest that instrumentals aren't moving and emotional, Ark and others). Seeing what people could do by adding music to a limerick that I wrote (nod to Phill) started me trying to put the two together.

I've pulled plenty of duds off the old poem-tree over the years. What I've learnt by starting to put music to words ( and that is the way I work, rather than starting with the melody ) is that poems are not lyrics. Lyrics don't have to scan or follow any arcane rules. It's freer and just as expressive. So perhaps calling the section Poems is a bit dismissive?

I want to hone my musical AND lyrical abilities, I want to learn from other writers who put up lyrics, and I want to read wonderful images and feel great thoughts expressed as lyrics. I get that in both the "Poem"  and in the Songwriting section.

So lets call it the Lyrics Section.

Do you have links to the lost songwriters, I'd love to become acquainted with them ?

"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understandin' ."    Elvis Costello

alansheeran's Website

  • upyerkilt
  • upyerkilt
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Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

Toney
I agree with Alan here sort of.

But I do agree wit hyou too.
There has been a decline in the songwriters section while the poerty section is quiet busy.

I was agaisnt the idea of a poetry section but it was called for by some members and it has grown in size.
It could be renamed to lyrics but I dont see the point in that either, it doesnt really matter what it is called or what goes in it, it is there and being moderated by two folk.

Now although it is called poems and very well it may be, but on Alan's point here they can also be lyrics. With the permission of the writer someone else could use the poem/lyrics and turn it into a song. this is another reason why the section was made. Or dont even ask the writer, just use the lyrics as long as you are not using it to make money from them, if so then permission is needed.

I do like seeing songs in here from members, some are total nonsense to me, some look really good and I have sat wit hthe guitar and tried them out, I have even put one or two on youtube/myspace that others have written. Some look good but sound not so good some look not so good but end up sounding fantastic. So this would make the poems in the poetry section just words depending on how you look at it. There is a lot more in here to play about wit hand discover So it is a shame to see a decline here, it means we have got less to choose from.

We still can have two and if the people that did contribute here more often previously but now got lazy and have not turned their words into a song then that is their loss. Maybe they are too lazy to do it, maybe they could not think of music for it, maybe it was intended to be a poem originally and although you say there are loads of poetry sites out there, which there is, these chordie members want to share with other chordie members.

So i am sitting right on top of this fence now. I can see a place for both sections but I do much prefer this section, but we should not let our personal preferences  get in the way.

I wouldnt have thought many would have left here because chordie now has a poetry section. If folk have left chordie because of this then they are being very silly.

Also Phill opened up a thread in the poetry section about artists or songs being poems first then getting turned into a song. I have posted a reply. Robert burns wrote and collected songs and poetry for his vast collection but a lot in theis collection that were soley written as a poem have been turned into songs. Also Tyla from the dogs D'amour writes poetry all the time and some of his finds its way to the strumming of a guitar. I am sure there will be plenty more that write as poems and get turned into songs.

Ah well, ye did ask for thoughts lol


Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending
  • arkady
  • arkady
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  • Registered: 2006-11-23
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Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

Hi
This a real emotive subject packed with some strongly held beliefs.
I think in a way having a poetry section has made members feel they have to have a finished song i.e. lyrics wrote chorded and importantly recorded into a finished piece before they can submit it to the song writing forum. How we change this mind set I’m not sure.
Also I guess it’s more convenient to able to post in the poem section than workout chords to fit a set of words so perhaps this is another reason for the perceived decline in the song writing forum.
Generally I feel the poem section a good thing and was a logical addition to Chordie
It’s certainly to late now to close the stable door as the horse has bolted…
Ark

  • From: A black hole in deep space
  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 7,865

Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

I dont see this as a critical issue just leave everything as it is,if members want to use the songwriting forum for there songs well and good if not whats the diff?

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Russell_Harding's Website

  • Registered: 2007-04-03
  • Posts: 3,489

Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

I can only speak for my self here.

I dont have the ability to write fantastic chords to songs i write. So, i dont want to be boring the chordians here with my
simple chords. If i post here in poems, its LYRICS, im thinking . Unless i state other wise !
I have had lyrics  here turned into great songs, which to me is fantastic. First , that some person finds them worthy enough,
then takes the time to do so. Brings me great pleasure indeed.

Yes! there are great poetry forums out there  Southpaw,  for me they don't have the perfection of chordie. This forum to me is  "Like the best box of chocolates " to quote someone ! It so completes all aspects of writing and music.

This link here is a poem by Maya Angelou. Amy Sky", carried this around in her purse for quite some time.
She seen the potential of this great poem for a song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkdfdC__EvA

I have the greatest respect for you Southpaw as you well know by now. But, am i not understanding you  totally in your post ?
If not ? enlighten me more Sir.

As always love to you and yours.

Old Doll.

Why Blend in with the Crowd ? When you were made to stand out !
  • Registered: 2006-03-04
  • Posts: 2,662

Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

Hi Old Doll,
Just wondering out loud if the addition of the poetry section detered some from submitting songs who used to do so, that's all, nothing more nothing less. Not a knock on the poets or the songwriters, just some fodder for discussion.

Ciao Bella,
SouthPaw41L

Give everything but up.
  • From: Chesapeake,VA
  • Registered: 2008-11-12
  • Posts: 332

Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

SouthPaw41L wrote:

Greetings all,

I've noticed a huge decline lately in songs ... there is a huge difference between songs and poems. 

One can argue 'till they're blue in the face but poetry is poetry, and it has its place.

I personally think the addition of poems has soured some/many songwriters...

...there are 100's of poetry exclusive sites out there in cyber land that one can express their inner words....miss some of the previous songwriters who have chosen to take their tremendous talents elsewhere........

Any thoughts............

As relative newcomer here's some thoughts.  You have some subjective conclusions, but don't get me wrong I agree with the basic thought you posted:

Don't know if a "huge decline" is just a natural peak and valley with people's interest, but it's presumptive to say it's because poetry is here.  Also, I don't think there's a huge difference in poetry and lyrics.  But LYRICS not yet set to music would have the GOAL of becoming music.  That's where I agree poems don't belong in a music website, if the intent is to make a poem there are sites more dedicated to that.  SO if a poetic verse is posted here I'd think we would all be expecting it is an offer to go the next step either by the author or this community.  If it is only to say "here's a poem I wrote" it seems there's a better place.  Calling the section "LYRICS" would put focus on music writing. 

That said, let's hope not to alienate the songwriters who aren't daring enough to call their words lyrics.  Especially those songwriters also that happen to be DJs and poets smile

ps Most will agree - regardless, Chordie is a great site for learning.

AccoustikNoyz's Website

  • From: Tennessee
  • Registered: 2007-08-04
  • Posts: 436

Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

What about naming the section  "Lyrics/Poems" ?

  • upyerkilt
  • upyerkilt
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Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

I dont tihnk there is any need to rename anything, even though it would be easy I think,
Also under the heading "poetry" in the poetry section this is typed

The place for poems and lyrics that are not yet ready to become songs to be shared and discussed.

so that just about covers it.

I do think though what Southpaw is saying. There has been a decline in the number of songs getting posted.




Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending
  • From: The Land Of Song
  • Registered: 2007-12-10
  • Posts: 5,707

Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

when i joined chordie, i joined as a songwriter, but i saw that some offerings were largely poems with a chord symbol or two thrown in to make it look like a song! so i posted some of my poems. then the poem section opened so the poems went there and the closet poets also posted there which is a good thing i think? because it outed them so to speak.

then we come to poems being songs without music, like i said on the poem section elton john and bernie taupin got together by luck, and there's nothing to say that it couldn't happen here, after all there is probably truck loads of composers out there looking for a good verse to get them going.

i don't mind what the section is called but lyrics/poems sounds quite descriptive and gets my vote.

i really dont believe that song writers are abandoning ship because of the poem section, and i'd rather have my two main interests under one roof, i've also written short stories, but they wont get posted here...honest!

when your a writer your a writer, songs poems books...your a writer

phill

Ask not what Chordie can do for you, but what you can do for Chordie.

Phill Williams's Website

  • selso
  • selso
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  • Registered: 2007-07-18
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Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

This may be off the subject(well not really). In seeing Southpaw's post I went and looked at other songwritng forums, even posted some of my songs. They where really hard to figure out and not as organized as Chordie. I dont really write "poetry", as all my lyrics get put to music. I think it's great that chordie expanded its self to enclude a poetry forum. If I ever write a poem thats where it will go. As for "jumping ship" Its just hard for me personally to write a good song quickly. I think the problem (and it's a big I think) is the lack of response. Not saying people dont respond but its hard to write them out in the correct form, record it and not have much of a reponses(again,no offense to the ones who do responed.) I personally would like to see more constructive critisism. I dont know, I love this site and the people on it. So I'll just keep on posting and like I said , if I ever write a poem then the poetry section's were it'll go

Everything is bad including me
But being bad is good policy
Reverend Horton Heat
  • upyerkilt
  • upyerkilt
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Re: Has our legitimacy been compromised?????

Phill Williams wrote:

then we come to poems being songs without music, like i said on the poem section elton john and bernie taupin got together by luck, and there's nothing to say that it couldn't happen here, after all there is probably truck loads of composers out there looking for a good verse to get them going.


when your a writer your a writer, songs poems books...your a writer

phill

Phill, very true indeed, a really good argument for having a poems/lyrics section.

we could have two or three folk here that could start a superb band with someones lyrics along with guitars playing and a band...whatever...
and if we have and they realise that they work well together and make something for themselves then it has to be a good thing.
And even if they dont make it big or even get noticed but have fun doing what they do then it is a good thing.
I know i look in the poetry section while having my guitar at hand sometimes, still havnt foud something I can say I have found music to that I would love to sing, but others might and I might yet still hopefully.
I have a presonal mission to do this now. But wit hme being a bit lazy sometimes and not finding time it might take a while.

ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending