• From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Topic: Poetry

I'm making this sticky.

Anyway, as before, poetry is a good way to discuss aspects of theory often overlooked, like meter and rhythm.

We were discussing rhythm for Edmund Vance Cooke's "Sedition" which I played as a punk tune, in 4 or in 2.   Some had mentioned that they felt it fit better in 3 or 6, and I was at a loss as to how it fell out like that.

So here's the poem again...

You can not salt the eagle's tail, nor limit thought's dominion
You can not put ideas in jail, you can't deport opinion
If any cause be draw sans lies then drag it to the light
Out in the sunshine evil dies, but fattens on the night

You can not make a truth untrue by dint of legal fiction
You can not prison human view, you can't convict conviction
For though by thumb screws and by rack, by exile and by prison
Truth has been crushed and palled in black, yet truth has always risen

You can not quell a vicious thought except that thought be free
Gag it and you'll find it taught on every land and sea
Truth asks no favor for her blade upon the field with error
Nor are her converts ever made by threat of force and terror

You can not salt the eagle's tail, nor limit thought's dominion
You can not put ideas in jail, you can't deport opinion

I usually bang it out in E or C.

But I'm really curious to see how this would fall out in 6/8.

Any takers?

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

2 Reply by Stonebridge (edited by Stonebridge 2008-12-05 16:20:13)

  • From: Cardiff, Wales, UK
  • Registered: 2008-08-25
  • Posts: 182

Re: Poetry

jerome.oneil wrote:

But I'm really curious to see how this would fall out in 6/8.

Any takers?

OK Jerome, here goes, and apologies for being a bit abrupt in my last reply.
Maybe I could explain why I think it goes in 3 or 6...
When I saw the word "poetry" I didn't immediately think of punk or rock!
For such a cultured ditty I thought more of a slow ballad or more reflective sort of song (thinking of Cohen, Paul Simon here)
Even a bit of a dirge in the minor key...
I also think there may be certain transatlantic linguistic differences in the way the speech patterns work. Who knows.
Taking the 1st line
You CAN not SALT the EA-gle's TAIL, nor LIM-it THOUGHT'S do-MIN-ion
This goes as: de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM etc
That is unstressed-STRESSED unstressed-STRESSED etc (technically referred to as "iambic", I'm told)
with 2 beats on each STRESSED  "DUM", and 1 on each unstressed  "de".
This would be my way of speaking the poem and my natural speech rhythm.
This is more likely the way when you are looking at a nice slow, elegant style of song. Emphasis on the word SLOW.

On the other hand, if you see this as a bit of angry punk where you spit out the words then, yes, it goes in 2 or 4 (with one beat on the stressed syllable), rather than 3 or 6 (with 2 beats on the stressed syllable)
The faster you take it, the more it seems to prefer 2s. Slow it down and it goes nicely in 3s.
In a slow 6/8 it would be 4 measures per line, starting on an up-beat with the 1st syllable of the 2nd line where the X is
Thus (two beats on each stressed syllable)
You | CAN not SALT the | EA-gle's TAIL, nor | LIM-it THOUGHT'S do- | -MIN-ion  - - X |
So it's really a matter of how you approach the initial choice of style. After that the rhythm decides itself.
This is why music and songwriting is so fascinating. Look how we can see two totally different interpretations of the same text.
Hope I have made myself clearer this time.
Regards

Chris

  • upyerkilt
  • upyerkilt
  • Unofficial king of Scotland
  • Offline
  • From: Balloch, Scotland, UK, Earth
  • Registered: 2006-03-04
  • Posts: 3,290

Re: Poetry

im here as a member.

I dont like this at all.

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending
  • Registered: 2007-03-24
  • Posts: 1,108

Re: Poetry

upyerkilt wrote:

im here as a member.

I dont like this at all.

Huh? I think it's interesting, appropriate and applicable. I respectfully disagree, sir. This is music theory related. Timing is something I've always struggled with and I think this is helpful for song writing. In fact, if this weren't such a hotly contested issue, I'd say it probably fits best in the Songwriting Forum. But, just one mediocre musician's opinion for what it's worth.

I used to be disgusted; now I try to be amused.
Elvis Costello
  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Poetry

Stonebridge wrote:
jerome.oneil wrote:

But I'm really curious to see how this would fall out in 6/8.

Any takers?

OK Jerome, here goes, and apologies for being a bit abrupt in my last reply.

I wasn't aware of anything to apologize for.  In fact, I thought it a pretty fascinating and good reply.   You're clearly a guy that knows his stuff, and your input is important.  I'd like to see this as a discussion on how we merge artistic intent with sound theory in order to come up with good music.  It think it's shaping up that way.

Maybe I could explain why I think it goes in 3 or 6...
When I saw the word "poetry" I didn't immediately think of punk or rock!
For such a cultured ditty I thought more of a slow ballad or more reflective sort of song (thinking of Cohen, Paul Simon here)
Even a bit of a dirge in the minor key...
I also think there may be certain transatlantic linguistic differences in the way the speech patterns work. Who knows.
Taking the 1st line
You CAN not SALT the EA-gle's TAIL, nor LIM-it THOUGHT'S do-MIN-ion
This goes as: de DUM de DUM de DUM de DUM etc
That is unstressed-STRESSED unstressed-STRESSED etc (technically referred to as "iambic", I'm told)
with 2 beats on each STRESSED  "DUM", and 1 on each unstressed  "de".
This would be my way of speaking the poem and my natural speech rhythm.
This is more likely the way when you are looking at a nice slow, elegant style of song. Emphasis on the word SLOW.

I can see that if I squint my ears hard enough.  big_smile  I guess that does call out another important aspect of the discussion, and how you would apply theory to literary ideas to create a song.   The lyrics themselves lend to a certain tempo, but that will be colored by your interpretation of them.

You read them slowly, and slower tempos do well in 6.  My own musical biases are towards more straight up rock and punk, so that's how I interpret the song.

I'd like to work it using your interpretation, though, purely as an exercise in my own growth.   I think you see it in 4 much easier than I see it in 6, and I like to do things the hard way.   

You | CAN not SALT the | EA-gle's TAIL, nor | LIM-it THOUGHT'S do- | -MIN-ion  - - X |
So it's really a matter of how you approach the initial choice of style. After that the rhythm decides itself.
This is why music and songwriting is so fascinating. Look how we can see two totally different interpretations of the same text.
Hope I have made myself clearer this time.
Regards

Chris

Much clearer.

Shall we build it as a dirge or something minor?  Lets us A minor, as everyone knows it well.

Agreed?

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Poetry

geoaguiar wrote:
upyerkilt wrote:

im here as a member.

I dont like this at all.

Huh? I think it's interesting, appropriate and applicable. I respectfully disagree, sir. This is music theory related. Timing is something I've always struggled with and I think this is helpful for song writing. In fact, if this weren't such a hotly contested issue, I'd say it probably fits best in the Songwriting Forum. But, just one mediocre musician's opinion for what it's worth.

Everyone's opinion is welcome here, but I don't want to get side tracked on this issue.    For those that think it's cool and interesting, please jump in and participate.   For those that don't care for it, the easiest solution is to simply not participate.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Poetry

I'm going to set certain rules.  If you don't want to participate, then simply don't.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

  • buvvy
  • Senior Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2008-06-01
  • Posts: 273

Re: Poetry

Surely this is what the site should be about - musical collaberation between MUSICIANS who know what they are doing and are working together to achieve an end result. I don't have any where near the expertise of the writers but I am fascinated by the discussion and am looking forward to the end result. ps I personally think a ballady/dirgy vibe would work - but that may be because my writing tends to be on the mournfull side.

Keep on Rocking and remember Animals Feel Pain Too.
  • From: Western Oregon,US
  • Registered: 2008-07-22
  • Posts: 2,498

Re: Poetry

This is an interesting thread, at least in my opinion.  Not being a "songwriter" but a musician primarily....  I have written lines at times that might be adapted into a lyrical form.  There is a "form" to a lyric and I see from this posting that the syllabic rhythm of the content has a bearing in the music that will eventually accompany the lyric.  To me this is a new aspect that must be considered when choosing words to convey the meaning as well as the emotion of the text.

I for one, just learned something that will be important to me one day....  Thank You for sharing.

Take Care;
Doug

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare
  • Registered: 2008-10-30
  • Posts: 2

Re: Poetry

I like this Am thing it sounds good to me.
I'm no musical genius but I find the lyrics hard to place, in my head anyway, with punk. I found as I was reading the words it felt more closely linked to the style of Iron Maiden not sure though why that is.
Have you recorded this as a punk songs I'd like to hear it if you have.

also I wonder what certain lyrics mean

You can not salt the eagle's tail

and

If any cause be draw sans lies then drag it to the light

Sorry for being nieve

  • From: Independence, Mo
  • Registered: 2007-09-23
  • Posts: 233

Re: Poetry

I think this is a great topic. I don't know a whole lot 'bout meteres and timing has always been a problem for me. I would like to see this play out so I can learn something new. I think it's important. Lead on "masters of theory" I'm listening!
                                                                    getfiddle

A musician is someone with too much time on their hands! Thank god I'm a musician!!!

getfiddle's Website

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Poetry

I'm a huge Iron Maiden fan, and I can definitely hear that in my head. 

Lyrically, "salting the eagle's tail" is a reference to the old wives tale that says if you put salt on a bird's tail, it can't fly.   The eagle has long been symbolic of freedom.  That reads as a statement that you can not squelch a free people, or something similar.

The second verse I'm less sure about.  I wrote those down from a recording, and that was the only verse I wasn't sure I got right.   That truth seeks the light and lies seek the darkness is what I believe the author is trying to convey.

We haven't recorded this one, or even committed it to a specific arrangement.   I know how I hear it, but much like Chordie, my bandmates all hear it differently as well.  Go figure!  big_smile

Anyway, if you guys hear it a certain way, I'd sure like to hear it.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Poetry

I just got home from dropping off my kids, and I had a bit of an epiphany on why I'm struggling so hard to read this one in a slower, minor dirge like fashion.

It's because this poem is ultimately a protest poem.  It's about speaking truth to power, and resistance to oppression and coercion by the powerful.  Those are all common themes in punk, which I think is why it sticks in my head like that.

Deep down inside, I want the Dropkick Murphys to play this.  big_smile

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

jerome.oneil's Website