Topic: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Other than the obvious mojo factor, and I know thats a big factor, What specifically is the difference between a 50's early 60's Strat/Tele and a brand spanking new Strat/Tele? I've talked to people in the past who have said quality really dropped off after CBS took over. Ok, I can understand the whole corprate greed thing getting in the way of quality. But Fender is back under its own ownership again if I'm not mistaken, and quality standards today have to be at least up to the standards of yesterday right? I've  also heard the problem is the polyurathane paint. It doesn't let the wood age and breathe. I just saw an ad in musicians friend talking about the highway one telecaster with "new" nitrocellulose paint, just like they used to do. So is fender going back to thier old ways and now the new ones will be as good as the old, minus mojo? What are the other areas that are not as good as old? I'm in manufacturing, and I completly understand and appreciate craftsmanship. We always try to use the latest techniques while never compromising quality. Whenever we try a new way of doing things or a new piece of equipment we always analyze those results and if they are not up to our standards, we find out why. What specifically is the difference? Be specific. Not, It just feels right. Or it just sounds better.

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Hand wound pick-ups versus mass produced pick-ups accounts for the majority of tonal diffrence. I don't see much diffrence in fit and finish. The wood is also a contributing factor. The best grade of mahogany (or other woods) that are used today would have been trashed back in the 50's. The timber available/used today by companys (some private luthiers still have a stock pile of the good stuff) is generally farmed, cut from younger trees or from the older stumps and just doesn't measure up tonally...
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[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
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Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

I think a lot of this Vintage craze is simply nonsense. For someone who wants to actually play a guitar then I think we have many more choices of better products than ever before. I've seen many Fenders and Gibsons at the Guitar shows for over ten thousand dollars! For a collector and especially if the guitar has a unique history such as owned by a famous person then maybe...but as a player I would rather buy a new one and enjoy.

Middleaged Redneck sorta guy who refuses to grow up...passion for music, especially Southern Rock but like bout everything cept Gangsta/Hip Hop. Collect guitars, mandolins, and love to ride Harleys.

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Huge subject Craig, first answer is that they are simply made differently. There are lots of little differences even on what are called 'reissue' guitars, sometimes great big differences.

On acoustics and archtops there is a wood ageing effect over the years, Yamaha are trying to recreate this with their L - ART series, new guitars that sound like old (in a good way). Necks are often improved as the they get played in (the neck on all guitars is a key resonant part). I also reckon part of the vintage vibe is pickup cores losing magnetism, thus giving a more subtle/milder vibe than when they were new.

Alot of this can be gotten either by careful choosing of your modern guitar or by custom spec or after sale modding. If you are new to electric you may not have formed tastes for certain pickups etc so have a good look around.

'The sound of the city seems to disappear'

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Hi Guys,

  Just an opinion here, but really in acoustics and electrics it all comes down to the wood.  Really, the older instruments were built with lumber milled from the "ancient forests" those that were saplings during the "dark ages".  Matured slowly and made uniform dense growth rings.  We harvested those forests for the wood, or they reached the end of their lives through age, or disease, or infestation,  and those stocks are depleted.

  Modern forestry practices allow for more rapid maturation of the crop, and results in lumber that has wider growth rings and lower density.... sadly the acoustic properties suffer for it.  That's why the older strats have a "different sound" than the newer models, and old martins are mellower.  There is also that age improvement factor, which with proper drying and "seasoning" of the wood prior to fabrication into musical instruments can be reduced.  Smaller Luthiers choose woods carefully and generally take the time to age their stock.  Mass producers use whatever comes down the line and cut materials to minimize waste, as a cost control.

  Newer instruments are good, but once in awhile by chance one will come off the line that is "gooder than good".  Which is why the best advice is to play everything and find one you like... it's a lottery, but someone wins every day somewhere.

  Take Care; Doug

PS: Sorry for the rant, but being here in the Pacific Northwest for a good part of my life, the wood products industry gets in your blood.

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

I am a bit of a vintage snob, I must admit. If you doubt the difference, play a 50's tele and a modern reissue back to back. You can't deny that those old guitars can play like butter and sound glorious. That said, I build guitars from modern parts or modifiy stock models to closely approximate the keys parts of that sound and feel. It can be done without tons of trouble.
One important part of the puzzle, after wood quality and pickups is the finish. After playing lacquer finished guitars for any length of time, modern poly finished guitars feel awful, plastic-y and cold. They sound muted and dead.

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Good point Drew,

  Finish does have a great effect on the resonance of the wood.  The old style nitrocellulose laquer gave a very thin light finish, the newer coatings are thick and heavy.  Small things make big differences!

Take Care:  Doug

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Is Fender going back to the nitrocellulose? Thats what they are advertising the highway one tele as. If its better, I don't see why they don't do it on all thier models.

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

California air quality laws strongly limits the use of spray finishes that contain a solvent that evaporates into the air, like lacquer.

Also, from an efficiency standpoint, lacquer must be sprayed in layers, over time, allowing the previous coat to fully skin over. Then it must be left to cure for 2- 4 weeks before the final polish can be done.

Traditional lacquer continues to dry and harden for years, shrinking and giving off solvent. That is why old guitars have cracks in the finish (it shrunk) and that is another reason why old guitars sound different.

Modern poly finishes, on the other hand, can be fully cured by 90 seconds of exposure to UV light.

10 (edited by cytania 2008-10-05 15:03:34)

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Craig was asking about  what really affects the sound of a guitar, finish is a very small factor next to neck and pickups. Also with nitrocellulose expect your clean look to start looking tired in a few years, not a problem if you go for the relic mojo vibe. I think here the difference is 60s players who wanted a guitar to look good a long time (but were disappointed until poly came along) and todays buyers who will never play the newly nitro coated guitars that much (or in a smokey, sweaty club now we're smoke-free and aircon-ed).

Neck is crucial. If you offered me the choice between a 60s body and a 60s neck I'd take neck and bolt it onto a modern body every time. There's another key factor, often original Fender bolt-ons were a bit iffy but players shaved them, shimmed them until a great fit resulted. Likewise any guitar neck, nitro or poly, feels sticky/glossy to start with. Playing naturally smooths this finish and you get that 'like butter' effect. Some try and use steel wool but it's not as subtle. I suspect a nitro will wear in sooner and I'd look for a good satin finish in either.

All too easy to get hung-up on these visible signs and forget the pickups and wiring. Now here the truth is vintage controls did very little for the sound. Brian Setzer called the tone on his Grestch the 'mud dial' and let if fall inside the body. Most 60s Precision basses have a tone control that is horrible in the last half. Here modern pickups and pots give you more options. You can have hotter pickups than were ever available in the sixties or get subtle single coils just like the period. You just have to know what you want first.

'The sound of the city seems to disappear'

11 (edited by flester 2008-10-17 13:12:56)

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Guitarpix wrote:

Hand wound pick-ups versus mass produced pick-ups accounts for the majority of tonal diffrence.

How could  it possibly make a difference whether a coil of wire is wound by hand or not? I accept that the materials (e.g. the wire or the magnets) might make a difference. But the wire is just an electrical conductor, it does not 'know' how it has been wound into a coil.

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

flester wrote:
Guitarpix wrote:

Hand wound pick-ups versus mass produced pick-ups accounts for the majority of tonal diffrence.

How could  it possibly make a difference whether a coil of wire is wound by hand or not? I accept that the materials (e.g. the wire or the magnets) might make a difference. But the wire is just an electrical conductor, it does not 'know' how it has been wound into a coil.

I asked pretty much the same question to a Gibson rep. He told me that a person would manually wind the coils with a crank type wire winder and would sometimes get distracted or somehow lose count...that would create a unique wound coil with a different sound. Modern automated machines wind with exact accuracy...   I'm convinced that once someone knows the "formula" for a particular sounding pickup then it's simply a matter of programming in everything...I was also told that magnets will dimemish over time also affecting the sound...plus many other factors such as wood types, set up, strings, etc, etc....

Middleaged Redneck sorta guy who refuses to grow up...passion for music, especially Southern Rock but like bout everything cept Gangsta/Hip Hop. Collect guitars, mandolins, and love to ride Harleys.

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

One of the big differences is how even and regular the windings are. I think this is what the Gibson rep was trying to say. Most machine wound-pickup coils have very regular, even windings.

Some human-wound pickups have sloppier windings. Some are even "scatter wound" on purpose. This reduces the inductance slightly and increases the self-capacitance resulting in a different (higher) resonant frequency. In short, a scatter wound pickup will sound slightly brighter with a little less output that an evenly wound pickup, with the same amount of wire and the same magnets. Players report that these pickups sound more "hi-fi", glassy or crisp.

For instance, the pickups in SRV's main guitar were made by a notoriously sloppy worker at Fender. They were unintentionally scatter wound. Some shops now have machines that can reproduce this slightly random wrapping technique.

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

I have always been told to never refinish a guitar. Only when the hairline cracks form in the origional finish does the fine wood tone begin to get out.
My 1960 Gibson 330 gets guitar polish a time or two a year but that's it.
Years ago a guitar sales guy tried to talk me into replacing my oh-so-mellow Gibson single wound pickups with Humbuckers. Good thing I was broke. Humbuckers are way too trebley for my taste.

We pronounce it "Guf Coast".
Ya'll wanna go down to the Guf?

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

my understanding though is that the polyurathane finish on fenders will not get those hair line cracks to let the wood breath and age. Thats why the vintage gurus/snobs do not like the newer fenders. The quaility of the build could be as good or even better than in the past. The quaility of the materials could be as good or even better than in the past but without letting the wood breath through those hairline cracks in the nitrocellulose finish it will never sound as good as in the past. Or at least that is thier argument. I've never had the oportunity to play anything older than an 80's fender and it was nowhere near as nice as my 95 strat.  Those are buth poly though. I agree with the never refinish but that is why I'm looking at a lower priced model to do my hot rodding on. The highway one models are nitro but i'm not sure if the neck is. I'm also not sure if you can sand down a poly guitar enough to get rid of the sealer they put on it. I don't know if refinishing a poly guitar with a nitrocellulose finish would be the same as having one in nitro from the start.

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

Craig, refinish nitro is easier than poly, it comes off with chemical strippers. Poly finishes need a heat gun, it's a devil to sand off. Both stay in the wood grain potentially sabotaging a nice clean respray. You can buy unfinished routed bodies or you could even look at makers like Gordon Smith who offer uncoated guitars as an option.

However I think you're missing the point, body finish is a pretty minor factor overall. Pickups and neck first of all. You're also falling into the trap of aiming for an 'ultimate' guitar I think, when you should be looking to focus in on the exact kind of sound you want.

'The sound of the city seems to disappear'

Re: question for vintage Gurus/Snobs

I do not think poly finishes will ever get the tiny cracks ("crazing") that old nitro finishes get. I also doubt that the cracks themselves are the source of any tonal improvement. They are just a sign that the finish has shrunk and hardened to a very thin, glass-like state that is less able to resist vibration. Poly finishes, like marine or spar varnish, skin over but remain pliable on the inside and so damp more vibration. The film is much thicker too.

That said, I don't feel that the finish is even in the top 5 of things that make one guitar sound better than another. For a solidbody, pickups have to be near the top of the list along with the specific stick of wood. The different species definately bring their own color to your tone. Even between parts made from the same species there are major differences in density and resonance. If you build a guitar from scratch, as you begin 'tap tuning' the parts, you will be amazed at the differences between say, 2 mahogany neck blanks.

Lastly, a guitar that feels really good inspires the player. The neck profile, fret finishing, fretboard radius, weight and hang all impact how a guitar feels. That is why I say, when you decide on a model you like, try to play 10 or 12 of them to find the one that has that little bit of magic for you.