Topic: voice training

I don't know if my voice sux, or if it is my ear, but I always seem to be singing out of key.
about a half step low or high.
Anybody else overcome this problem?
How did you do it?

I thought I had a fantastic voice, until I recorded myself. (singing "babe I'm gonna leave you" by zep.)
I felt like crying when I listened to it.  I was recording it because I was sure people would be shocked that it wasn't Robert Plant.  I felt like one of those losers that get shot down for american idol or something.  I destroyed the tape.

Re: voice training

Half step is probably closer than I'll ever be.  Robert Plant isn't the easiest singer to copy... don't be so hard on yourself

You have to forget about what other people say; when you're supposed to die, when you're supposed to be lovin'. You have to forget about all these things. You have to go on and be crazy. Craziness is like heaven.
                                                        -James Marshall Hendrix

Re: voice training

Hi jkohney,

The first thing to remember is that a recording will never sound how you think you sound. You hear your own voice internally more than externally through your ears and everyone is surprised the first time they hear a recording of themselves.

Maybe it is not as bad as you first thought, try recording a couple of easy songs that you know real well and see if you are in key with them. It will also help you get used to you 'recorded voice'. Perhaps, at the end of the day, a few voice coaching lessons may be necessary, I wish you luck.

Roger

"Do, or do not; there is no try"

Re: voice training

Hi kjohney,
I agree that hearing your own voice through a recording can be rude awakening - don't be discouraged.  Since the human voice is a fretless instrument, it takes some practice to get it to work right.

Here are some tips that can help:
Breathe from the gut - you need air to support the sound.  Relax and learn to get a full tank of air to sing with.  Trying to sing without enough air results in screeching and off-key tones.

Sing long tones - work on producing a steady tone.  Doesn't have to loud, just clear and long and steady.  Once you have steadied the tone you can work on building volume.  You should be able to feel resonance in your head once the tone is clear.  Again, sufficient air is necessary.

Sing arpeggios (chords with notes played one at a time) to get your throat limbered up.  Your voice box is a muscle that needs to be strengthened to sing.  Also sing 'roller coasters' and let the tone go way up and way down smoothly and slowly like a siren.

Don' be too critical of yourself - every voice is unique.
James

"That darn Pythagorean Comma thing keeps messing me up!"
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma[/url]

Re: voice training

if there's a song you can only sing half a step higher than it's supposed to be, and you can't be asked to get it right, why not use a capo? or if it's half a step lower, tune your gluitar down half a step.

easy peasy smile

don't ever stand aside, don't ever be denied
you gotta be who you be if you're comin' with me
cool
okay??

Re: voice training

Hi Kjohnny.

I got this advice and site from Old Doll. It is very good.

http://www.vocalist.org.uk/breathing_techniques.html


I have been singing for years. Last year I discovered I had a " singers node" growing on one of my vocal cords. I went for speach theorapy that has managed to make the little thing shrink. it is still there but  iam managing much better now to sing. I just cannot get high notes like I used to and I cannot go too deep for lengthy times. Hopefully going to get it zapped out.
So dont be like me and strain your voice to get a sound, let it come naturally. I hope that site helps you a bit.
On the site, it tells you basically what James has said.

and also as James said, your voice is unique, learn to love it.

I have a mate that is bad at singing but it doesnt stop him and some songs his voice sounds spot on, especially when singing radio head songs.



Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: voice training

Use a monitor if possible.  You sound in tune to you because you hear you through your jaw.  However, others hear you through the air and tympanic membrane.  So, if you begin to hear yourself through vibrations in the air rather than vibrations in your jaw, you just may be able to adjust your pitch to sound better.

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: voice training

Listening to a recording of yourself isn't always a pleasant experience. I had a music teacher who gave me some tips to stay on pitch. First, breathing is key whether you singing soft or loud. Breathe from your gut like everyone else has said. You actually have to push a little with you diaphram and abs when your singing to make sure your voice resonates (your abs may be a little sore after singing for awhile if you haven't ever sang this way before).

She also taught me to "sing through my nose". It sound a little weird (OK a lot weird smile ) but what she meant was think about pushing the tone and sound up through the nose instead of straight out your mouth. You'll actually be able to hear if you're in tune easier. I don't know the scientific reasons why, but it works for me. It's especially helpful if you have a tendency to sing flat.

Breathe well and sing through your nose! smile That's my advice.

"Do or do not, there is no try." Yoda

Re: voice training

listen to someone who's reeeeally crap at singing and you'll feel better about yourself smile

don't ever stand aside, don't ever be denied
you gotta be who you be if you're comin' with me
cool
okay??

Re: voice training

If Johnny Cash, Kris Kristofferson, Hank Snow, Hank Williams and many others were to come along today they would never make it just on their singing ability. They could all "carry a tune" but they did not have the best of voices. Look back at some of the "GREATS" and I think you will agree. Janis Joplin didn't have a good singing voice BUT she had a unique sound. The same can be said for a lotta people. Just wish I could get up and sing.

Nela

Re: voice training

Hi Kjohney ,
   That recorder is a very usefull tool . I use a four track whenever I'm working on a new song , and keep playing it back to find out where I have to do something different . There are many songs that I love , but won't sing because my voice isn't right for them . Don't give up after recording one song . The next one you try might sound great .
   As mentioned , use songs that require long notes , use your diaphram , and use a monitor facing you . You'll be amazed at the difference between head tones and hearing the sound in the air .
   Good luck , and don't give up ...............Jerry

  P.S. Nela says it all......

" Just reading the lyrics , it's hard to hear the song , but if the words tug at the heartstrings......it's enough for now........... "

Re: voice training

(0)==#paranormal guitar wrote:

listen to someone who's reeeeally crap at singing and you'll feel better about yourself smile

You're too young will,  but something I tell my audiences is that the more they drink, the better I sound.  So I only play for kids (who don't care how you sound so long as you're singing silly songs) or where there are adult beverages readily available. 

-Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: voice training

Zurf wrote:
(0)==#paranormal guitar wrote:

listen to someone who's reeeeally crap at singing and you'll feel better about yourself smile

You're too young will,  but something I tell my audiences is that the more they drink, the better I sound.  So I only play for kids (who don't care how you sound so long as you're singing silly songs) or where there are adult beverages readily available. 

-Zurf

i have the mental age of a 20 year-old, of course i understand lol
and sometimes i look like a 20 year-old, too

don't ever stand aside, don't ever be denied
you gotta be who you be if you're comin' with me
cool
okay??

Re: voice training

(0)==#paranormal guitar wrote:
Zurf wrote:
(0)==#paranormal guitar wrote:

listen to someone who's reeeeally crap at singing and you'll feel better about yourself smile

You're too young will,  but something I tell my audiences is that the more they drink, the better I sound.  So I only play for kids (who don't care how you sound so long as you're singing silly songs) or where there are adult beverages readily available. 

-Zurf

i have the mental age of a 20 year-old, of course i understand lol
and sometimes i look like a 20 year-old, too

Me too, but I'm 42.

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: voice training

thanks guys

Re: voice training

kjohney wrote:

I don't know if my voice sux, or if it is my ear, but I always seem to be singing out of key.
about a half step low or high.
Anybody else overcome this problem?
How did you do it?

I thought I had a fantastic voice, until I recorded myself. (singing "babe I'm gonna leave you" by zep.)
I felt like crying when I listened to it.  I was recording it because I was sure people would be shocked that it wasn't Robert Plant.  I felt like one of those losers that get shot down for american idol or something.  I destroyed the tape.

I think everyone who intially hears their voice cringes in fear. It takes getting used to and like almost all things, ones voice will improve with practice, seasoning, experience, and time. Pay no mind to that American Idol crap. The Simon Cow guy that critiques evryone has zero credibility. I'll listen to someone offering advice to me regarding singing or other areas of music if they have skill and credibility. This Simon dweeb has neither. Keep at it and stop destroying your tapes. They're good to measure your progress by.
Just hope you don't this kind of response;
http://www.psfights.com/fight-video-2413.htm

Give everything but up.

Re: voice training

are you referring to the timbre or ability to sing a melody line?I wouldn't worry at all if its your own sound. Most of us mortals have a hard time being objective about ourselves and in ternally we may be aspiring to a voice like...well Stevie Wonder or whoever it is that has so profoundly influenced us.. but we really should find our strength. On the other hand ...if it is a problem with getting out of key etc..... then well you may not be a singer..I know I am cynical //no offense to anyone but singing is so poweful when executed with expression that the audience believes......keep falling off the melody line significantly and its a hexation to the spirit. just my opinion.

Re: voice training

It's all in the vowel.  If you sing ugly vowels, your voice won't be too pretty, and you'll have trouble with intonation.  The vocal chords only make what's called, the "start of the sound".   Your job as a singer is to manipulate the energy that is created (use head resonance or bring in the chest, if you want.)  But this is all controlled through the vowel.  They say the vocal muscles are controlled twice-indirectly.   We control what they do by the vowel we use.  The vowel is controlled by feeling.  Sing a happy "Ah", sing a sad "Ah".... they both sound different, using different resonance because of what YOU do with the sound energy in your mouth.
Sing "Ehhh" when you think you're singing "Ah", well.... expect some untidy results.  T

(They say the best invention for musical development is the TAPE RECORDER. Singers can't hear themselves.  Only the audience can hear how we really sound. We must rely on how it feels.)  I remember when I was recorded at 16 years old and was surprised at the vibrato I was always hearing about.  Hmm...  Also heard some bad notes too.   Woke me up...

There is always a vowel inside a vowel.  What we actually do when we change a vowel, is to insert a vowel within.   When you sing acoustically, this second vowel is  heard by the audience as some feeling.  But the microphone picks up the vowel within the vowel.  (I worked in a university that studied this)  A singer who understands this, can manipulate the hell out of it and have BIG fun.   (Ever sang a word in a song that gives you--and your audience goose bumps?)  Some singers who don't know this get by thru instinct and do well.  Other singers think technically and try to work muscles---painful and boring for her/him and the listener.  Singers who record themselves a lot develop a natural relationship with vowels because they hear what's going on inside their mouth.  Some understand it; some don't.  Doesn't really matter if the relationship is there.

There is also the question of KEY.   Are you singing in a key that is good for your voice?

My experience with guitar player/singers or singers who work with guitar players is that they have to work in the key the guitar player can play.  Ok, there's capo, but what if the key has to come down?   Or if the key sounds like shit on guitar?  Then the singer has to deal with an unlucky key...

One person commented here already that even 1/2 tone can make a difference.  That is SOOOO true.  Because it has to do with where the breaks are in your voice.   If you have to sing a melody where most notes occur on your break, the song won't be much fun to sing, and will sound like it.  (But sometimes this difficulty is interpreted as "so sad" or "so angry", and that can be good for the singer's career.  (Listen to Joe Cocker.  That guy was usually in pain.  But the audience ate it up.  But then, he had more troubles than keys, but I digress...)

Try different keys.

One thing I can definately say:   if you enjoy your voice, if it makes you feel good to sing, then you're doing a lot right.

Intonation is usually a key or vowel thing.  If you've got these things in order, you don't need to worry about breathing.  You were doing it right when you were born.  At 1 year old you had a voice that could surpass all these problems.  NEVER try to learn breathing without making some kind of tone.  It's pointless.  You don't breath the same while singing as you do when you're not.  (Ex: Yoga breathing, which is silent), so anything you try, make sure you're making a sound.  "Me me me me" in middle voice.  Or "oiy-oiy-oiy"  or "nay nay nay" as long as you can.  You'll feel the abdominal muscles come in without ANY effort on your part.  (Such an exercise requires that either the tongue or lips are constantly moving... ) You'll see: It just happens naturally....

Please don't get caught up in "breathing" exercises.   It's pointless.  Sing vertically--not horizontally, and you'll save yourself from nodes..

THIS I KNOW!  I've been teaching this stuff for half my life.

Good luck!

Re: voice training

well I can disagree with you here.

I got breathing exersices and i would say they worked.

the part you say about singing  nay nay nay  me me me etc that is part of breathing exersices i got, so if you have been teaching singing half your life i think you could mabye be a bit more open minded to breathing exercises, or look more into them.
I was told all about them in great detail and what I was told I believe and it worked for me.

maybe the doctors in scotland work differently to where you are?


thanks for the rest of the advice though. looks good

Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: voice training

Interesting how you agreed with me by disagreeing.  Me me me, Nay nay nay..... part of breathing exercises.  And that's how you learned it.
Whether you realized it or not...   or not... 
So... if I support this, how am I not open-minded... HUH???

If you knew what you were talking about, you would not have said what you said.   

TOLD ABOUT THEM IN GREAT DETAIL...?   I have WORKED with them in GREAT DETAIL.

Your message is insulting...

Recalcitrant....

Don't ask a doctor.   Ask a voice professor or teacher....   any university... anywhere...  they know... we've been doing it for a while now....
I'll waste no more time here...

What an attitude....

Sorry I posted.

Re: voice training

attitude?
hmm, ok.
email coming your way.


attitude? lol



ahhh the wonders of human life and ignorance

ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: voice training

VirginiaK,
   Music is an art, it is not a science. All of the experts in the world may conclude that one technique is better than others but said tecnique may not be useful for others. We have to look at music and the learning process with an open mind. My way, or your way, or the way you were taught by professors, isn't always gonna be the best, or only way. All we are doing in this forum is giving our opinions on what works best for us. Different styles of music require different forms of breathing .So what might be effective in classical music might not be as important in blues, jazz, or pop. The breathing and enunciation can be overdone if one is stressing the vowels too much in blues or pop. It's fine to clearly enunciate the vowels in opera or classical type music but doing this in more common, worldwide popular music, sounds out of place and overbearing. Remember, art, not science................

Give everything but up.

Re: voice training

virginia
I have deleted your post as it was just enticing an argument.
I sent you the email so others here do not have to read or put up with nonsense on the forum.

Now if you want to continue to keep posting such replies then I will have to keep deleting.

thank you for your cooperation


Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: voice training

Hello Southpaw41L

You are absolutely right in what you say.

Singing is an art.  And in my opinion, concentrating on breathing simply gets in the way of the art.  Because it focuses on a technical skill that should work naturally.  Concentrating on the breathing, especially in a way where one is NOT actually singing is moving the art into science. 
In my humble, but learned opinion:
All forms of singing require the same basic breathing ability.  (With some exceptions eg. classical---things we don't do in pop/rock/folk or jazz music.)  But for the most part, we all have the same apparatus and when it's working naturally and correctly, it works the same in all of us regardless of what we're singing.  It's just that the different styles of song cause each of us to use this ability differently.  When I sing "More Than Words" or "I'll Be Watching You", I don't use the skill in the same way as when I'm singing "My Funny Valentine", but that does not mean that I need to learn two different techniques of breathing.  Just a different style of singing.  With one style one would maybe use more chest-voice in the mix; the other one might use a lighter head-voice. Or both combined.  But that is not controlled by the breathing.  It's controlled through the vowel.   

And that's where the fun begins.  That's where the artistic field opens wide up.  Because you get to think about how to interpret a word or phrase.  Whether to make it sad or angry or happy...   And see what kinds of sounds you get.  It is so much fun!  But the breathing should just come along naturally to support it.  I have learned by my own experience that this should not be learned separately.

Name any singer who sounds great, and you'll hear an instinctive use of vowels. And please don't think that I sing something like "Piece of My Heart" like an opera singer.  Ooooooo...   that would be pretty scary,  He he he....  I am not a classical singer.   Never was... Grew up on Procal Harem, Janis Joplin, Grace Slick, Led Zeppelin...  I just wanted to sing this music but I didn't want to ruin my voice the way SOME of them did....  Look at Robert Plant for example, even two months ago(live concert I heard), he still sounds like he's 25 years old!  Listen to his diction.  His vowels.  You can say that he breathes properly, but that wouldn't happen without a relationship to vowels.

If a blues singer sings a word in a song that sounds so great, it's because he or she played with the vowel.  "Turned the WORD around in his/her mouth in an interesting way".  That's about art.  I talked about this in an earlier message that is somehow no longer there. (Doesn't matter. I must have I forgotten to  press "submit".)

For example, Aretha Franklin had this great way of throwing a vowel around in her mouth that gave her this signature double vibrato.   It was big fun figuring out how she did that.   But I didn't figure it out through breathing.  I figured it out by figuring out, "What is SHE doing?"   ----  playing with a vowel...
(I used to be a jobbing singer--only for money--good money!) and I would do a set where in one song I had to sing it just like Diana Ross; next song-just like Bonnie Raitt, then Aretha,  then backup for WHAM (ohmygod) or a Joe Cocker song, or Janis Joplin, then Whitney Houston. Then somebody wants to hear something from America or Jefferson Airplane.   Can't do all that without knowing how they make their sound.  In this work, one learns about vowels.  Got NO time to think about breathing.

Learning breathing is like learning to ride a bike.  Sometimes you just want to cruise slowly; sometimes you want to ride fast and furious; sometimes you want to pull wheelies, and bank off ramps (that requires some special training).  But the ability to balance oneself on the bike and ride without falling and hurting oneself is something we learn naturally.   I never tried to steer my advice in the direction of cutting out the ART of singing and concentrating on the science of singing.   I am steadfast against this.  Maybe you misunderstood what I said in a previous post.   (Recordings will support me.)

In fact I mentioned that if one is having intonation trouble, it's probably not the breathing.  (Although some other problem is getting in the way of the natural breathing ability. It's a reciprocal event.)   So think about something else; ie, key. 

Usually one needs to fix the vowels, (or posture, which I didn't mention, I think. Bad posture makes it hard for the body to support the sound).  Sometimes fixing the key will fix the vowels because they're easier to sing when they don't always land on a break. 

AND I don't think this way, because professors told me that.  I have learned this from dragging through this quagmire of voice training that it's better to find the answers myself.   I simply naturally rejected the notion of "breath exercises without tone" long ago. I just happily found that in the last 15-20 years, that most professors don't support it either.

And also, not all voice professors are classical. Mine weren't.  But I DID work under one long ago who told me that I have to teach my students to train their diaphragms not to collapse.   Huh?  I asked three doctors about this and each one laughed and said:  "If that happens, you would stop breathing and die!"   

Come on, you gotta find that funny!

In most universities around the world (I'm talking pop/folk/rock/jazz departments), they simply don't teach breathing without tone anymore.   It's just a fact.  A wonderful fact because I always thought it was nonsense, anyway.  (But lots of private and Music School teachers still buy into it, mostly because they're afraid not to...  or they don't know anything else.  Or they learned it from their teachers, but don't realize that they really learned it on stage, or through the songs they had to sing.....  so they keep on teaching it...  mostly out  of insecurity...   REALLY... sadly, this is true!)

If you compare the voice to a car, the vowel is the steering wheel.  We don't concentrate on how the gas gets from the tank in back, up front to the motor.  We concentrate on keeping on the road. And we work the gear shift, gas, breaks, and clutch naturally--hopefully.  If you're having trouble with shifting gears, then concentrating on how the gas gets to the motor is kinda pointless because that's the CAR's function.  You have to learn to coordinate your feet and arms.   And you won't succeed if you concentrate on how the gas gets to the motor. 

With voice, we coordinate the use of throat and abdomen muscles---diaphragm knows its job;    If somehow it doesn't.... better not go to sleep!

My opinion is, forget about the breathing.  Do exercises that turn the breath support on naturally.   We were breathing naturally and correctly for singing already, without training, when we were babies...   In fact, voice training is all about removing the problems we build in as we grow up, and try to come back to this natural ability.

This is what I said in the first place....

Before you write this attitude off, try it.   One should sing some song that one always sings, and try different, let's say, "accents".  See how the voice changes. See how the  breathing ability adjusts itself.  If something doesn't work, one can try something else.   'We artists are full of ideas, aren't we?  We can go on forever until we find something that works.  If not, then something else is wrong...

Re: voice training

VirginiaK wrote:

If you compare the voice to a car, the vowel is the steering wheel.  We don't concentrate on how the gas gets from the tank in back, up front to the motor.  We concentrate on keeping on the road. And we work the gear shift, gas, breaks, and clutch naturally--hopefully.  If you're having trouble with shifting gears, then concentrating on how the gas gets to the motor is kinda pointless because that's the CAR's function.  You have to learn to coordinate your feet and arms.   And you won't succeed if you concentrate on how the gas gets to the motor.

Normally I wouldn't, but since it's the Chat Corner...

That's a terrible analogy. Best thing you can do for someone's driving is teach them how the car works and why it does what it does. By understanding exactly what you are doing when you push the clutch in or pull the gearshifter, you will understand better how to do it. And I certainly do concentrate on exactly how the vehicle works when I drive or ride anything, and it certainly hasn't stopped me from succeeding.

"You have to get over the love of power, and enjoy the power of love, in order to know peace."
-Jimi Hendrix.