• Registered: 2007-04-25
  • Posts: 551

Topic: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

I've played trombone for 5 years, piano (once in a while) for 9 years, and acoustic guitar now for 1 year.  I read music everyday with key signatures, but I still don't understand how you know what notes go in what key.  I understand major/minor, but not much else.  If you give me guitar tabs and a few minutes I'm fine.  I can play almost all of the chords you need, a few scales, lots of random riffs, and a few solos.  But if you told me "make up a solo in B" I'd have no clue what you mean.  Would someone with lots of patience care to explain about keys to me?

"A steering wheel don't mean you can drive, a warm body don't mean I'm alive"
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2 Reply by johncross21 (edited by johncross21 2008-03-14 00:09:54)

  • From: Orpington London
  • Registered: 2006-10-22
  • Posts: 390

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

to describe the notes of a scale musically you need to know the starting note of the key and whether its major, minor, natural minor etc

taking the major keys because they are the simplest. the key of C starts on C

all major keys progress throught the notes of the key in the the same step pattern which is  tone, tone, semitone, tone tone tone semitone

C tone  D  tone E  semitone F tone  G tone  A tone B semitone C

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3 Reply by johncross21 (edited by johncross21 2008-03-14 00:12:11)

  • From: Orpington London
  • Registered: 2006-10-22
  • Posts: 390

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

still with me ?

have you ever come across the cycle of fifths because its very helpful in understanding keys

ecah note in the cycle of fifths is a interval of a fifth above the previous note.  the cycle starts like this

C G D A E B   
0  1 2 3 4 5

in each successive key you have to add an additional sharp note

F C G D A E B (Finding customers generates demand and encourages business)
 
So the key of D major has two sharps and they are F and C

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  • From: Orpington London
  • Registered: 2006-10-22
  • Posts: 390

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

so a solo in B

assuming you mean B Major

using the cycle of fifths we know that B major will have 5 sharps F C G D AND A

and to prove it

B Tone C# Tone D# Semitone E Tone F# Tone  G#  Tone A#

use those notes in your B solo

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  • Registered: 2007-04-25
  • Posts: 551

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

I kind of sort of can follow that. . .you lost me on the cycle of fifths thing, though.

"A steering wheel don't mean you can drive, a warm body don't mean I'm alive"
Switchfoot

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6 Reply by johncross21 (edited by johncross21 2008-03-14 00:08:17)

  • From: Orpington London
  • Registered: 2006-10-22
  • Posts: 390

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

I don't really understand how the cycle of fifths work either-  however I do know that an interval of a fifth splits a scale into two - so going through the fifths brings you back neatly to your original starting note after going through each and all of the twelve keys   

the full cycle is

C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C

I think that the cycle is an arbitrary design feature of the key system rather than a intrinsic property of music - the key system was devised by c18th composers

so like all arbitary systems (eg the alphabet) you have to learn certain things rather than understand them

you can work out flat keys by going backwards from C

The flat keys in order are

F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb (flat bread eaten after divine grace)

and the order that notes become flat within successive keys are

Bb Eb Ab Db and Gb



Good luck with your keys

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  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

The circle is pretty simple to understand if you understand how scales are derived.   Working counter clockwise through the scale, you move a fifth up from your starting point.  So if you start at C, the next point on the circle is G.  G is the fifth of C.  The next note over is D.  D is the fifth of G.  And so on.

If you go the other way, you get fourths.  The other way from C gives you F, which is the fourth of C. 

It's really a "circle of intervals."  If you know it, you can find any intervalic relationship.

Every other point on the circle is the 2nd of the root key going in "fifths" direction.  Skip four over, and you're at a major 3rd.  Fourths and fifths we've already covered.  Sixths are three jumps away, and sevenths are 5.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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8 Reply by 06sc500 (edited by 06sc500 2008-03-14 00:37:12)

  • Registered: 2007-04-25
  • Posts: 551

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

Well, I understand it a little better, thanks.  I have one more question: which chords go in which keys? Say you're in the key of G major-what chords would it contain? Also, what's the difference between minor and natural minor? Thanks again for your explanations.

"A steering wheel don't mean you can drive, a warm body don't mean I'm alive"
Switchfoot

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  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

Learn the scales associated with each key, and you'll know the chords that apply to it.

G major, for example.

G A Bb C D E F G

The chords associated with *any* key are related to those notes, and their position in the scale.

Major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, minor b5, major.

So for G, it's associated chords are.

G Am Bbm C D Em Fmb5 G

Someday we'll win this thing...

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  • Registered: 2007-04-25
  • Posts: 551

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

jerome.oneil wrote:

The circle is pretty simple to understand if you understand how scales are derived.   Working counter clockwise through the scale, you move a fifth up from your starting point.  So if you start at C, the next point on the circle is G.  G is the fifth of C.  The next note over is D.  D is the fifth of G.  And so on.

If you go the other way, you get fourths.  The other way from C gives you F, which is the fourth of C. 

It's really a "circle of intervals."  If you know it, you can find any intervalic relationship.

Every other point on the circle is the 2nd of the root key going in "fifths" direction.  Skip four over, and you're at a major 3rd.  Fourths and fifths we've already covered.  Sixths are three jumps away, and sevenths are 5.

Wow, I must have really missed something in learning about music.  What do you mean when you say "D is the fifth of G" or "F is the fourth of C"? Do you mean that D is five steps above a G and F is five steps above a C? So is it as simple as half and whole steps, just like the fretboard or notes on a piano?

"A steering wheel don't mean you can drive, a warm body don't mean I'm alive"
Switchfoot

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  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

It's all about scales.  If you don't know scales, you're going to be really limited.

The fifth of any key is the fifth note in it's associated scale.

D is the fifth (V) of G.

G major. 

G A Bb C  D E  F  G
1  2 3   4  5  6  7  Root

F is the IV of C

C major

C D E F G A B C
1  2 3 4 5 6 7  8

It's all about scales.  The best thing you can do is learn them.  Learn how they are derived, and how they relate to each other.  Everything stems from that.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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  • Registered: 2007-11-28
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Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

Check this out as a tool that may help.

www.musicdials.com


Nela

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13 Reply by aj1

  • aj1
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  • From: UK
  • Registered: 2007-11-02
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Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

jerome.oneil wrote:

Learn the scales associated with each key, and you'll know the chords that apply to it.

G major, for example.

G A Bb C D E F G

The chords associated with *any* key are related to those notes, and their position in the scale.

Major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, minor b5, major.

So for G, it's associated chords are.

G Am Bbm C D Em Fmb5 G

Isn't G major scale

G A B C D E F# G

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

aj1 wrote:
jerome.oneil wrote:

Learn the scales associated with each key, and you'll know the chords that apply to it.

G major, for example.

G A Bb C D E F G

The chords associated with *any* key are related to those notes, and their position in the scale.

Major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, minor b5, major.

So for G, it's associated chords are.

G Am Bbm C D Em Fmb5 G

Isn't G major scale

G A B C D E F# G

That's what I get for posting late at night.

Yes sir, it is.  big_smile

F has the Bb.  G the F is sharp. 

I blame lack of sleep.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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  • Registered: 2008-03-08
  • Posts: 5

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

Thats the wonderfull thing about guitar over most any other instrument the fingering patterns are repeated time and again. Say you play C major no flats or sharps but then you go to B major now you have five sharps but no change in how your fingering pattern would play it. Thats why so many guitarists dont understand a lot of music theory the way the instrument is built they dont have to, they learn something in one key and then just move it around.

  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

lineboss58 wrote:

Thats the wonderfull thing about guitar over most any other instrument the fingering patterns are repeated time and again. Say you play C major no flats or sharps but then you go to B major now you have five sharps but no change in how your fingering pattern would play it. Thats why so many guitarists dont understand a lot of music theory the way the instrument is built they dont have to, they learn something in one key and then just move it around.

Yup. That's why I always stress that learning scales isn't hard.  Learn those few scale patterns and closed chord forms, and you can play in pretty much any key.

Someday we'll win this thing...

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17 Reply by Russell_Harding (edited by Russell_Harding 2008-03-14 15:06:15)

  • From: A black hole in deep space
  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 7,865

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

G A Bb C D E F G works nice for a minor scale in G  so its still a good piece of infomation or since its the key of G  would the F be a natural ?

jerome.oneil wrote:
aj1 wrote:
jerome.oneil wrote:

Learn the scales associated with each key, and you'll know the chords that apply to it.

G major, for example.

G A Bb C D E F G

The chords associated with *any* key are related to those notes, and their position in the scale.

Major, minor, minor, major, major, minor, minor b5, major.

So for G, it's associated chords are.

G Am Bbm C D Em Fmb5 G

Isn't G major scale

G A B C D E F# G

That's what I get for posting late at night.

Yes sir, it is.  big_smile

F has the Bb.  G the F is sharp. 

I blame lack of sleep.

"Growing old is not for sissies"

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  • From: Bellevue, WA
  • Registered: 2006-06-15
  • Posts: 3,336

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

Russell_Harding wrote:

G A Bb C D E F G works nice for a minor scale in G  so its still a good piece of infomation or since its the key of G  would the F be a natural ?

It would be some kind of minor scale, but I'm not sure which.

In the natural G minor scale, the E is also flat, as the relative major scale for G minor is Bb major.   

G A Bb C D Eb F G

The G harmonic minor scale would raise the F to F#.

So minor sharp 6, whatever you want to call it.  big_smile

Someday we'll win this thing...

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  • From: A black hole in deep space
  • Registered: 2007-10-28
  • Posts: 7,865

Re: Can some kind person explain keys to me?

im not sure what scale it is but i played the notes and improved around them and it sounds fine to me so its the G chordie melodic minor scale

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