Topic: copyrighting songs

Ok ,I am starting this  <img src="images/smiley_icons/icon_lol.gif" border=0 alt="Laughing">  and hopefully more people that know more about it will contribute to what they know.


I have been told that if you have something somewhere i.e a song on the internet and have proof of the date it was posted then that would or could serve as a legal copyright. But I could see complictaions with this. I am sure someone somewhere could make something look as though it was posted earlier.

But it could still be a copyright of it, maybe not a legal one though.


Peire is setting up a new site wich allows us to post our own songs on in music format ( not just lyrics). If there are enough people on this and see actual songs and hear them then I suppose we would all have witnesses to their copyright? Dont know how that would stand in a court, ( thats if a song ever got that far, but ye never know)


anyone else know anymore?



Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: copyrighting songs

Cheers guys.. You will probably see more of me, I've never been on any type of forum before but this is really interesting.


I was told once whilst doing a scriptwriting course that an easy and cheap way of copywriting scripts etc was to send it to yourself by registered/recorded post. And don't open it, the date will be on the postmark... If you do need to open it because of suspected copying do it in the presence of a police officer...


But songwriters could come up with songs on a more regular basis than a scriptwriter so could cost as fortune. I have writen a song and I think the lyrics are Excellant. I havn't gone back to it for a while but when I do I will let you know(especially when I learn more about copying)...


I have grown up around thge entertainment industry, A friend of my dad's claims he wrote the theme song for a well known television programme, but someone got hold of it changed one word and he got nothing, and no proof...

I wouldnt doubt him, he is one of the biggest names in couyntry music (british) and has written many quality songs.


Any way thanks for resonding and please if anyone knows more (even administrators) let us know......


Bert

Re: copyrighting songs

I believe we have opened up a delicious can of worms . . . plenty to know about on this very techinical topic.  The "mail it to yourself" strategy as mentioned by wave22 is one way of establishing tangible form for a creation - this idea is discussed in the Wikipedia article (see, Copyright).   It is a long article full of juicy info. Here is a part of it:


Obtaining and enforcing copyright


Typically, a work must meet minimal standards of originality in order to qualify for copyright, and the copyright expires after a set period of time (some jurisdictions may allow this to be extended). Different countries impose different tests, although generally the requirements are low; in the United Kingdom there has to be some 'skill, originality and work' which has gone into it. However, even fairly trivial amounts of these qualities are sufficient for determining whether a particular act of copying constitutes an infringement of the author's original expression. In Australia, it has been held that a single word is insufficient to comprise a copyright work.

In the United States, copyright has relatively recently been made automatic (in the style of the Berne Convention), which has had the effect of making it appear to be more like a property right. Thus, as with property, a copyright need not be granted or obtained through official registration with any government office. Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape or a letter), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights. However, while a copyright need not be officially registered for the copyright owner to begin exercising his exclusive rights, registration of works (where the laws of that jurisdiction provide for registration) does have benefits; it serves as prima facie evidence of a valid copyright and enables the copyright holder to seek statutory damages and attorney's fees (whereas in the USA, for instance, registering after an infringement only enables one to receive actual damages and lost profits). The original holder of the copyright may be the employer of the actual author rather than the author himself if the work is a "work for hire". Again, this principle is widespread; in English law the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 provides that where a work in which copyright subsists is made by an employee in the course of that employment, the copyright is automatically assigned to the employer.

Copyrights are generally enforced by the holder in a civil law court, but there are also criminal infringement statutes. Criminal sanctions are generally aimed at serious counterfeiting activity, but are now becoming more commonplace as copyright collectives such as the RIAA are, more and more, targeting the file sharing home Internet user. Thus far however, these cases have usually been settled outside of court, with demands of payment of several thousand dollars accompanied by nothing more than a threat to sue the file sharer, which will be ruinous to many defendants in practice, thus such cases rarely make their way to civil law courts.

It is important to understand that absence of the copyright symbol does not mean that the work is not covered by copyright. The work once created from originality through 'mental labor' is instantaneously considered copyrighted to that person.

"That darn Pythagorean Comma thing keeps messing me up!"
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma[/url]

Re: copyrighting songs

mmmmmmmmmmmm... Interesting but heavy, and some of it a bit complicated for my little mind.


Funny it should mention Australia, and the one word change as this is the example i gave earlier... it was an Australian programme my dad's friend's song was allegedly used for and they changed the word flowers to Roses... I was always told it was just one word.


So if I understand that bit correctly, that would be perfectly legal in Australia?


Bert

Re: copyrighting songs

If you re-read the sentance, I believe it means that in Australia it is not possible to copyright a single word . . . . For instance, I create a word, "Slurballeckity".  That word alone is not copyrightable - however, it could probably be used as a registered trademark (but that is a different can of worms).


As with most legal matters, it is useful to have a historical perspective on a topic in order to make sense of the current state of affairs.  Although it is long, the Wikipedia article contains lots of info beyond what I cited previously.  Here is the link:


<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright</a>


What really matters to me is quite simple:  How can I easily establish a legal "dibs" on a song that I have created?

"That darn Pythagorean Comma thing keeps messing me up!"
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma[/url]

Re: copyrighting songs

hey hey!

if you are willing to spend a little cash then check into ASCAP (the american society of composers, authors and musicians.) they will copywrite your song, and publish it also... basically meaning that anyone doing an album needing a song will browse through published works looking for something they like. the last time i did this was 1985 for a battle of bands thing...we had to have origional tunes copywrited to be eligible. at that time it was about 10$ US for a tape up to 10 songs. probably way more now lol but they have a website ascap.com you can join as a writer, publisher, or both. used to be free to join but now ???? anyway hope this is of some help.


peace, slim.

Re: copyrighting songs

In the United States, copyright is implicit upon authorship.  That is, once you put it in a tangible form (record it, write it down, etc) it is copyrigted, and you don't have to do anything else.


You can register that copyright with the government, but that isn't necessary.  What that does is aid you in your civil litigation should someone else try to use your work without gaining your permission first.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: copyrighting songs

This has been most informative.  Can't say that I am now an expert on this topic (or any other topic for that matter), but I certainly know more now than I did a day or two ago.


Personally, it does not seem to be worth the expense or the time to register a creation with the government or to use one of the many commerical copyright services.  I'll just continue doing what I'm doing (which is writing songs as the mood strikes me) and not worrying about all the legalities.


Should somebody every profit greatly from one of my paltry creations, I will probably be struck by a piece of space junk and die instantly anyway.  In fact, I am probably a million more times likely to be hit by space junk than have a song I wrote enjoy any commercial success!

"That darn Pythagorean Comma thing keeps messing me up!"
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma[/url]

Re: copyrighting songs

Wave22 is correct. But the only thing I would do differently is this. You know if the song being stolen is yours. You should go to a lawyer and get his advice. You can probably open it in front of him because he is an officer of the court but he will most likely tell you to wait until you go to trial to open it. Also if you send it to anyone to review it send it return recipt requested this way you have some proof that you sent it to them.


This process is reffered to as a poor mans patten.


Eddie

Re: copyrighting songs

Ahh - Poor Man's Patten (or Patent?) - What a tasty phrase!  There's a song lurking there somewhere . . .


Using the mail as a dating device is quite intriguing.  However, I would bring the envelopes to the post office and ask that they be hand-cancelled so that the date is clear and legible.  Most of the machine-cancelled mail that I recieve is so blurry and smudged as to be useless for date verification purposes.

"That darn Pythagorean Comma thing keeps messing me up!"
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma[/url]

Re: copyrighting songs

Or...you could run it through a postage meter as a postage meter will automatically date the material and the newer machines print a perfectly legible mark pretty much every time.

Heck, you might even want to run the original piece of paper that the song was written on through the meter as well.

Re: copyrighting songs

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText"><b>tunedeaf wrote on Wed, 25 October 2006 03&#58;59</b></td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
Or...you could run it through a postage meter as a postage meter will automatically date the material and the newer machines print a perfectly legible mark pretty much every time.

Heck, you might even want to run the original piece of paper that the song was written on through the meter as well.
</td></tr></table>


Best way is with registered mail.  That way you not only get a timestamp on the postage, but a record of when it was delivered.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: copyrighting songs

I think it's important to remember that copyright laws vary a great deal from country to country.  It's because of the potential for allegations of copyright infringement that a person needs an agent to submit work to a publisher, or so I've been told anyway!


The registered mail thing I heard about from Jack Richardson at a music industry conference in Montreal in 1980 or '81.  He advised against paying a fee to any government agency as he opined that it was "a voluntary tax" to do so.  (he was the producer who mortgaged his home to bankroll the Guess Who's recording sessions before they became HUGE).


In Canada it's SOCAN that is the arbiter of who's entitled to royalties for what material - actually I think there are two agencies now that I think about it but it's the middle of the night and I'm having a "menopause moment".


Here's the bottom line boys and girls - nobody sings "Happy Birthday" in restaurants anymore because that song is not YET in the public domain and the restaurant chains are unwilling to pay royalties.    <img src="images/smiley_icons/icon_confused.gif" border=0 alt="Confused">

Re: copyrighting songs

diva,

no idea where you live but guessing at canada?

We sing happy birthday all the time in our pubs, clubs, halls and restaraunts in scotland.


Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: copyrighting songs

Cheers Buxomdiva and Ken (I think there was a Barbie Doll set a few years back named "Buxamdiva & Ken") - anyone can spontaneously sing 'Happy Birthday' wherever and whenever they may feel the need.  Since such a spontaneous performance is not part of an on-going commercial enterprise, there is no infringement.  (In fact, I believe that is how Broadway musicals got their start - complete strangers spontaneously motivated to start singing and dancing together in the street.)


However, at a restaurant where part of the established service routine is to celebrate a patron's birthday by bringing out a cake and having the serving crew gather 'round to merrily warble a song - - - that would be a public performance of a song within an ongoing for-profit enterprise.  Consequently, somebody (probably an attorney) could argue that the restaurant should pay licensing fees to the music's publisher.


Personally, I sing the lyric of 'Happy Birthday' to the tune of 'The Star Spangled Banner' - it is great fun and makes for much mirth.  I'm certain the words could also be adopted to 'Oh Canada' and 'Scotland the Brave' (or any other national anthem for that matter".

"That darn Pythagorean Comma thing keeps messing me up!"
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma[/url]

Re: copyrighting songs

Star Spangled Banner?  I love it!  That's right up there with singing the lyrics to the Gilligan's Island theme song to the tune of House of the Rising Sun.


You're obviously quite knowledgable about all this business - are you a published songwriter yourself?


A friend of mine claims to know the wife of Murray McLauchlan (that's the Canadian singer/songwriter, not to be confused with Murray McLachlan the British concert pianist  <img src="images/smiley_icons/icon_confused.gif" border=0 alt="Confused"> ) and when I asked him to make a few calls to try and get me permission to record Murray's "You need a new lover now" he informed me "that's not how it works".  He said SOCAN would come after me for royalties if I ever actually made any made performing or from the recording - completely missing the whole fantasy of having Murray be so impressed with my singing that he would perform on or perhaps even produce my debut CD.  Some people have NO imagination.  <img src="images/smiley_icons/icon_lol.gif" border=0 alt="Laughing">

Re: copyrighting songs

BuxomDiva, I am not an expert at anything in particular, I'm just another curious guy trying to make sense of it all . . . I write songs for fun but I have no illusions that there is a market for them beyond my own circle of friends and family.  However, if by some fluke, a song I wrote became a source of money for somebody - well then I would want my fair share of the funds.


As far as copyrights and other inellectual property issues go, it all boils down to 'fair use' of someone's creation.  The copyright heavies are probably not going to bother with a street performer or basically amatuer performers who play other people's music.  However, if someone were to use somebody else's creation to make real money - then it becomes an issue, and the original creator probably deserves some cut of the proceeds.


Night clubs and other performance venues usually pay licensing fees to ASCAP (or some other music-industry entity) for the right to publicly play copyrighted music that is recorded, or to provide a performance space for live musicians who perform covers of non-original music.  Again, this is a matter of 'fair use' and who is making money using what resources - if you are in a business where using music (recorded or live) is part of what you do to make money, then you should pay for the 'fair use' of the music.


If you want to sing a song for fun for your friends and family - go for it . . . but if you were to make a hit recording of the same song, then the creator of the music (or more likely their publisher) would have a realistic expectation of enjoying some of the commericial success.


And yes, you are correct - - - some people do have no imagination . . . these are the folks who are the non-musicians in the music industry.  They are the ones who (depending on your perspective) either; 1. Make it possible for artists to actually make a living on their creative talents.  Or, 2.  They are the ones who inhibit the creativity of others by making it a crime to use somebody else's creation to make money for yourself.


So the bottom line for this is simply this - - - do what you want to do, but if you use somebody else's creation unfairly then you might be in trouble.  So just do what you want to do - - - and it is usually easier to seek forgiveness than recieve permission.

"That darn Pythagorean Comma thing keeps messing me up!"
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma[/url]

Re: copyrighting songs

"easier to seek forgiveness than receive permission" - you're not married are you?  <img src="images/smiley_icons/icon_lol.gif" border=0 alt="Laughing">


No worries - I lecture my teenager about downloading from peer-to-peer sites ALL THE TIME (not that he listens of course - it's my job to nag and his to ignore me  <img src="images/smiley_icons/icon_rolleyes.gif" border=0 alt="Rolling Eyes"> )  I would never deprive anybody of their paltry 2 cents a track (or whatever it is these days) as I am so in awe of people who write well enough that others WANT to record their music!


My first real songwriting effort was an homage to Burton Cummings, and while I'm sure he'll never hear it I did have occasion to correspond with his mom; she LOVED the lyrics so that made me feel really good.  <img src="images/smiley_icons/icon_biggrin.gif" border=0 alt="Very Happy">   (when I learned that a mutual friend had introduced B.C. to the woman he married I asked "how could you do this to me?" - he replied "how could I do this to HER!" - good answer...roflmao)

Re: copyrighting songs

"Fair Use" does not mean that you can use it if you pay.  Copyright grants comprehensive and exclusive rights to the creator of a work, with the exceptions in the "Fair Use" clause.  Those exceptions revolve exclusively around commentary and criticism, and parody.


That is, a copyright holder can not charge a critic a fee for quoting some lyrics in a review, for example.


"Fair use" is pretty well defined in the law, and has very specific meanings within copyright.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]