Topic: Jealous spouses...

Hello fellow Chordians,

    IS there anyone else out there besides me that is dealing with a jealous spouse? Not jealous of a person...but jealous OF YOUR GUITAR PLAYING!

My wife is jealous of the time I spend playing the guitar and even calls it my "girlfriend".

Is anyone else dealing with a jealous spouse that just doesn't understand your love of music?



Dm

"Talent instantly recognizes genius,
but mediocrity knows nothing more than itself."

-Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle

Re: Jealous spouses...

Dude.  I think you should stop passing your girlfriend around at campfires and letting all your friends play with her.  That's just not right.

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: Jealous spouses...

Dear Abby,

I think my wife is cheating on me. I'm a working musician and travel a lot, and recently strange things have been happening when I get home. Her mobile rings and she steps outside too answer it or she says ' I'll call you back later'.

Sometimes she goes out with friends and comes home late, getting dropped off around the corner! I once picked up the extension while she was on the phone and she got very angry.

A mate of mine plays guitar in a band. he told me that my wife and some guy have been to his gigs. He wanted to borrow my amp. That’s when I got the idea to find out what was really going on.  I said that he could use the amp but I wanted to hide behind it at the gig and see who she comes in with. He agreed.


Saturday night came and I slipped behind the half stack to get a good view of the crowd. I could feel the heat from the back of the amp. Crouching down behind my Marshall, I noticed one of the power stage valves wasn't glowing as brightly as the others.

Is this something I can fix myself, or do I need to take it to a technician?

Very concerned, Norwich.


i don't remember whee i found this -- maybe on this site.

but if you think you've got it bad -- well, i play several instruments besides guitar, and i play in a couple of bands.  my wife -- a real music hater (can you believe that?) --thought i used to practice just to aggravate her.  she's gone now ...

Re: Jealous spouses...

Hi to you sss and all the ts
To late  in the morning to be reading this! but that just made me bust out laughing!! ah yes as we say here" You can be let out on your own!

Good morning to you!

Old Doll.

Why Blend in with the Crowd ? When you were made to stand out !

Re: Jealous spouses...

isn't there a king of the hill episode like this lol?


http://www.tv.com/king-of-the-hill/hank … ep_title;3

All You Need is Love smile

Re: Jealous spouses...

detman,
I know what you mean, but I am lucky that my wife jams along with me sometimes, but other times it is like she cannot stand the sound of me, or she hates songs that I play. But when someone else is in she is sitting tapping her feet away.
She thinks I play too much and also I am on this computer too much. She thinks I have a problem because I want another guitar, she says there is no need to have 4 guitars, but ifI get this new one I have my eye on it will be 5,lol.
What would your wife prefer, your hobby to be playing the guitar or going to the pub every night getting smashed? playing the guitar or sleeping around? playing the guitar or gambling? ( hmm, I do both of them,lol) playing the guitar or being a boring fart in front of the tv?
You carry on your guitar playing. My wife doesnt moan at me anymore about it, she knows it is a waste of time. Instead she goes into another room if she is tha bothered about me playing.

Get yer wife interested in something musical, a tom drum or harmonica, anything to get her jamming along. Or if you have kids, use them as an excuse. Kids always love or say they like your singing and playing, so keep playing for them. That worked for me for a few months until they got bored with me,lol

Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: Jealous spouses...

Well Detman and also our friend ssttsstt, all those stories are a FAR FROM MY BED show, until it happens to you.
Some partners (I prefer to use this word) are like that, it is their character, and even worse, the more you tell the truth, like a concert that ended 30 minutes to late, the more they don't believe you. I dare to call me a kind of expert, because it used to be my job as medical doctor (now non-active due to severe medical reasons), and in my job, I was known more as a kind of "shrink", because on 100 cases, I traeted 95, and maybe 5 went to a psychiatric doc.
What I want to tell is that I've been on both sides of similar problems. The subject of this topic is very delicate, especially being a kind of therapist myself, and I refuse to make conclusions, if I don't know the situation. I can just write about mine. I hate it to tell, but because of my position, and a kind of Rock&Roll attitude I was very popular for a lot of women. This can be already a cause. Who doesn't like female attention?? But forget this, and see what your partner likes or wants. Probably attention, communication, and some partners use high standards, often influenced by their friends, relatives, and a common thing is jealousy.
Detman, why is she jealous of you, playing guitar: do you play at home? I know that a lot of people want to be CENTRAL in a relation. If you play at home, and you stay playing at home, she's maybe jealous just because you pay more attention on your guitar, or she is convinced that your guitar is numero uno, and she feels herself pushed away in the second position.
Always start with one important fact: YOU CAN NOT CHANGE ANOTHER PERSON, YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE YOURSELF. I really want to talk about it with you, and I WILL ALWAYS TRY TO BE NEUTRAL, I do hope to receive an email, and I will try to help you as good as I can (knowing my profession!!). Upyerkilt is right, and at least try to convince her that she will always be the NUMBER ONE, but she has no right to take your guitar away. In the pre-PC world, and still now, how many man are member of the board of a baseball, or football team, or are responsable for church, school? I have done a lot things wrong, being too busy with my work and neglecting my family. The more you run away using your job as the perfect alibi, the worse it gets, and on a certain moment there will be a COMMUNICATION breakdown. Try to communicate as much as you can, and not discussing as much as you can. I don't know how long you are together, try to change your attitude or try at least to show her that she comes in the first place. I am even convinced that it is not the guitar who causes this problem, so try and try and try.
And ssttsstt: are you sure about this? If there is one thing I hate, well people who tell you if seen your wife.... I have a beautiful daughter who has a super boyfriend. If I should see that guy with some other girl, I don't think I would tell it, because someone ruined a relation I had because of similar problem. It looks cruel, but I think I never told someone to stop a relation, or other things. You can see my email, and you are welcome to mail me.
I hope I could help, even if it's only for 5%

[color=blue]- GITAARDOCPHIL SAIS: TO CONQUER DEAD, YOU HAVE TO DIE[/color]   AND [color=blue] we are born to die[/color]
- MY GUITAR PLAYS EVERY STYLE = BLUES, ROCK, METAL, so I NEED TO LEARN HOW TO PLAY IT.
[color=blue]Civilization began the first time an angry person cast a word instead of a rock.[/color]

Re: Jealous spouses...

gitaardocphil wrote:

Well Detman and also our friend ssttsstt, all those stories are a FAR FROM MY BED show, until it happens to you.
Some partners (I prefer to use this word) are like that, it is their character, and even worse, the more you tell the truth, like a concert that ended 30 minutes to late, the more they don't believe you. I dare to call me a kind of expert, because it used to be my job as medical doctor (now non-active due to severe medical reasons), and in my job, I was known more as a kind of "shrink", because on 100 cases, I traeted 95, and maybe 5 went to a psychiatric doc.
What I want to tell is that I've been on both sides of similar problems. The subject of this topic is very delicate, especially being a kind of therapist myself, and I refuse to make conclusions, if I don't know the situation. I can just write about mine. I hate it to tell, but because of my position, and a kind of Rock&Roll attitude I was very popular for a lot of women. This can be already a cause. Who doesn't like female attention?? But forget this, and see what your partner likes or wants. Probably attention, communication, and some partners use high standards, often influenced by their friends, relatives, and a common thing is jealousy.
Detman, why is she jealous of you, playing guitar: do you play at home? I know that a lot of people want to be CENTRAL in a relation. If you play at home, and you stay playing at home, she's maybe jealous just because you pay more attention on your guitar, or she is convinced that your guitar is numero uno, and she feels herself pushed away in the second position.
Always start with one important fact: YOU CAN NOT CHANGE ANOTHER PERSON, YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE YOURSELF. I really want to talk about it with you, and I WILL ALWAYS TRY TO BE NEUTRAL, I do hope to receive an email, and I will try to help you as good as I can (knowing my profession!!). Upyerkilt is right, and at least try to convince her that she will always be the NUMBER ONE, but she has no right to take your guitar away. In the pre-PC world, and still now, how many man are member of the board of a baseball, or football team, or are responsable for church, school? I have done a lot things wrong, being too busy with my work and neglecting my family. The more you run away using your job as the perfect alibi, the worse it gets, and on a certain moment there will be a COMMUNICATION breakdown. Try to communicate as much as you can, and not discussing as much as you can. I don't know how long you are together, try to change your attitude or try at least to show her that she comes in the first place. I am even convinced that it is not the guitar who causes this problem, so try and try and try.
And ssttsstt: are you sure about this? If there is one thing I hate, well people who tell you if seen your wife.... I have a beautiful daughter who has a super boyfriend. If I should see that guy with some other girl, I don't think I would tell it, because someone ruined a relation I had because of similar problem. It looks cruel, but I think I never told someone to stop a relation, or other things. You can see my email, and you are welcome to mail me.
I hope I could help, even if it's only for 5%

Thank you phil. You hit the nail on the head when you said...
"If you play at home, and you stay playing at home, she's maybe jealous just because you pay more attention on your guitar, or she is convinced that your guitar is numero uno, and she feels herself pushed away in the second position."

I found out this weekend that the problem is that I make her feel like the guitar is #1 instead of her. I will have to work on building up her confidence or something and making her understand that it's just a hobby that makes me very happy and that she is still my #1.

Thank you,
Dm

"Talent instantly recognizes genius,
but mediocrity knows nothing more than itself."

-Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle

Re: Jealous spouses...

May I recommend a book called "The Five Love Languages."  It has a Christian perspective on relationships, but there is very good advice in it even if you do not follow the Christian faith. 

One of the Love Languages it mentions is "Time."  Sounds like maybe your spouse understands affection by time spent with her.  Mine is that way, which makes it difficult for me to spend as much time as I'd like on the river.  After 20 years, we're beginning to understand how to make it work. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: Jealous spouses...

Couples should understand that they cannot have all the same interests. My wife loves to dance and I hate it, I play guitar and she dosen't. Therefore we RESPECT the fact that we have different interests. If my wife says that she is going out to dance with her friends I don't worry and fret about it. I TRUST her and I am happy that she has the oppertunity to enjoy herself. I play guitar as a passion and as a relief for stress. If I spend a few hours in a room playing she doesn't complain that I am playing because she knows I enjoy it. On the otherhand we both COMPROMISE and we also make time just for us. If one neglected the other there would be a problem. My wife knows that she is always my priority and I always treat her with the love and respect that she deserves. Of course this takes COMMUNICATION and also we have never acted in any way that would put each others trust at risk.  I know that our one true PASSION is for each other. I admit that we have a very special relationship that others don't nessessarily have yet the basic fundamentals must be there. We could live without each other but we would never want to.

Good Luck,
Michel

I may be goin' to hell in a bucket babe

Re: Jealous spouses...

OK friends...since I am the one who really brought this up in another thread...I will share what is going on in my life right now. Please dont judge me...I dont know where I am going with my life, and just living a day at a time. Please be patient with this "blog" and feel free to share your thoughts.

Before meeting my hubby 17 yrs ago, and since the age of 12, I played my acoustic night and day. I wrote tons of songs and poems. My guitar went everywhere I did. I never took lessons and didnt play really well(still dont actually) but I loved my music. I live for music. I love everything about it, and I hear it in my head those few times theres none playing.

My hubby is a recovering alcoholic. He was sobor for 8 yrs at one point...relapsed, and now has trouble getting a year together. Things were not good when there was drinking, but he is a good man. He accepted my daughter as his own, we married, and have 2 boys also. He knew how I loved my guitar and music when he married me.

As women oft do, as I worked and raised kids, I left behind that part of myself that was my true passion. I didnt pick up my guitar for years, but just once in a great while. My songs and all collected mildew in the basement in a box.

The last time my hubby resumed his drinking habit, it was kinda like a last straw. He is sobor 9 mo now, but something in me has changed. I realize I put away my love because that sort of thing made him jelous. And now I feel as tho life is suddenly passing me by.

I have a close friend,(who is male and happily married, and like a brother to me) He played bass in a popular rock band here. Thru emails and getting to his shows, he encouraged me to follow what I love. Of course, hubby is insanely jelous of him too. There is no reason to be. He SHOULD know better. But just the same...

About 7 mo ago I bought myself a new Martin acoustic(I should say, new to ME...Its used) It is big and uncomfortable, and I knew what I really wanted was an electric. With money I earned writing articles and short stories, I bought my cheap, but BEAUTIFUL transluscent blue electric, and an amp! I have been playing daily, in every moment I have to spare. Also learning new songs and writing too. Hubby is not supportive. I resent this because of my support of him all these years.

In a strange twist tho, like an addiction must be to HIM, I have become addicted as well. Since he can not drink, and hence can not go to clubs and the like to enjoy live music(Which I LOVE so much) I have begun going out occasionally to hear my friend's band. The trouble is, it is behind his back...I dont want to be dishonest...I've never lied to anyone in my life, and here I am in the grip of this NEED to get out once in a while. The day may come when like another poster said, someone will spot me there...but it must be a risk I'm willing to take. I'm there to feel the music, to dance, to feel alive...not to cheat or meet someone else. I have felt like a caged animal for so long.

Perhaps I am preparing myself for the possibility that he will once again drink, and I will have to make a choice. I dont know whats going on inside me anymore. I just want to be free to love what I love without hiding it. I doubt that will happen. We cant talk about it. I'm at a loss.

Any takers on this one?

Sincerely,    Kath

HAVE YOU
     HUGGED YOUR GUITAR
                                 TODAY??

12 (edited by Zurf 2007-08-20 15:56:19)

Re: Jealous spouses...

Kathy,

I'll take it.  I have lived among alcoholics my entire life.  I grew up in the situation that your children are in.  But for the grace of God and a good woman's love, I expect that I'd have become an alcoholic myself.  That's no credential, but is letting you know you're not alone.   

You and your husband need outside support.  Competent counselling almost certainly, but almost as surely a support group as well.  It is possible that his jealousy of your passion for music has nothing to do with you and much to do with him.  But it might have something to do with you too.  You are correct that you are a person who is alive and who needs to feel alive, but you are also wed to and therefore have a responsibility to someone whose needs will interfere with your typical everyday living.  Like nearly everything in life, it's a balance.  A disinterested third party who is familiar with the peculiar needs of a family that includes a recovering alcoholic will help you to strike that balance, with patience and kindness and love with and for one another.   The company of other families dealing with the same issues will give you some hope.   Your passion for music may have turned into an escape from your situation.  That may or may not be a bad thing, and has a great deal to do with the particulars of your situation.  If your family can handle this situation without the help of knowledgable and compassionate third party assistance, you would be a very unusual family. Get help. 

A challange for you all of you.  You have my sympathy, compassion, and prayers. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

13 (edited by upyerkilt 2007-08-20 17:30:35)

Re: Jealous spouses...

KAthy,
When I first started to read your post I honestly thought " oh ffs, ere we go, a life story that I cannot be bothered to read" ( I am like that sometimes i am afraid), but I continued reading and what an excellent post it is. A tough one to answer to as well!!

I migt sound realy harsh here and I appologise if I do, but I got this habit of telling peopl straight the way I see it ( which, i not always right, nor is it always the right thingto do)
I thnk you should do what you want to do, if it means plaing the guitar morn,noon and night then go for it. Also, if you want to go out ad have fun wit htfriends, then go for it. But if you want to go out and get blooteredthen maybe organise to stay at a friends?
Although you may/do love your hubby very much it is his prolem. Even though help groups ecourage partners to get invloved and say things like a prolem share is a problem halved, I do not believe this, i see it as one perons problem and the have to deal with it. I know alcoholics and the ones that want to help themselves will, others just bring other people down and make them feel like it is their fault for some reason or other.
Like I said, a tough one to answer an something I am not traind to responisbily answer for you to say you have got to listen to me. This is a question for a proffesional person, as already mentioned in a way.

But I wish you all the luck in the world, sorry I cannot pray for you as I am an atheist, but my thoughts are with you right now as I type this.
Once you have sorted out something that you want to do, and you want to , I am sure people here will be interested how you are managing.
It is very brave ( even though we are all strangers to you) for you to type all this in here, but then typing to complete strangers can be good too, opinions from people that know nothing about yourself is good I tihnk. I have done it often.

All the best

Ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending

Re: Jealous spouses...

Thanx for the replies...yes it is a very difficult thing and I dont have a clue really why I am so suddenly brave enuff to "go for it"(By the way Ken, When I go out I do not drink. I am not a drinker. I can have a blast and enjoy myself without such a crutch) You are right tho about some alcoholics just dragging ppl down with them...and I feel deep inside that there is some sort of "inevitable" coming and I must be realistic enuff to admit that its a real possibility. Frankly I am sick of giving up fun things in life. I am 44 and am having some medical problems now that are making me stare into the face of my own mortality.

I guess I was brave enuff to write about this in this forum, because I know that musicians are a special sort of ppl and if no one else can "feel me" a fellow musician may be able to. It also is just a display of how very distressed I really am about all of it. Thanx for your thoughts!

Zurf...your reply was truly helpful and on target. We have however gone thru the most intensive counseling available, and have been doing so for years. Hubby goes to AA and I go to Al-anon often. Its been 17 years of putting myself 2nd on the list of importance, and we cant even sit down and talk. I always am the one accused(because God forbid I pay some attention to myself) I truly think maybe I am being guided by an underlying flow of the earth or something...like a karma type thing, or just the natural course of events. I dont know how to say it without sounding crazy. I have been thru similar things as this in other areas of my life...almost a let go and let god thinking. Thank you for very very good advice, and perhaps it will be workable soon. Right now I feel sad about my life and marriage, and playing is about the only thing that lifts me up.

Just wanted to say I am glad I found this place. I love reading all the phylosophical discussions, as well as all the light hearted chit chat about playing. You guys are special. Thanx for putting up with crazy me!

HAVE YOU
     HUGGED YOUR GUITAR
                                 TODAY??

Re: Jealous spouses...

Hi Kath,
I have read your post several times!  You have a great battle going on inside of you! But you and only you "HAVE THE ANSWER TO YOUR OWN QUESTIONS?!"
You can receive all the helpful advice people are so willing to give you to help you! All of it well meaning! At the end of the day, i feel you have already started the transition...
Your transition will not only be painful for you, but to everyone connected to you. Some will walk away and never come back! Others will in the long term be there for you!  I feel You have become institutionalized within your life..
Your toe is on the line i feel  and your  ready to step over it! 
I so admire any addict who quit there addiction, but a lot of the isms remain! Usually the demons in there heads that started there addiction in the first place! "YOU" have to learn how to live with this with 100% commitment  Or make a new life for yourself.  Your biggest problem is  living with indecision ?the what ifs? you live with every day! Make a decision Kath, and feel free Girl! the time will come when you will know this, you will feel it deep to the very core of your being!
Am i being Smug? No! been there and regreted all the "what ifs years!" I also loved the Man with a passion from 16 years of age!
I could write much more, but would have to get to personal. So suffice to say!
i am now one very happy woman.. You are in my positive thoughts Kath.
And will remain their.
Diá Linn  {God to You}
Slán
Old Doll.

Why Blend in with the Crowd ? When you were made to stand out !

Re: Jealous spouses...

Hi Kath, Non-musicians often don't understand the challenges and pleasures of playing music - they don't understand why someone would want to do something that takes so much time and effort.

Don't feel that you are doing something wrong by wanting to practice and wanting to express yourself through your music.  Denying yourself that creative outlet would not help you or him or your kids.  Ideally, spouses should encourage one another to be the best person they can be - your patience with his alcoholism is admirable.  He should also be supportive of your desire to enjoy music.

You say that you have written lots of songs over the years - that is fabulous.  Keep it up and continue to create.  If possible get a simple USB microphone that plugs into your computer and record some of it to share via a MySpace Music page.  Chordie's songwriting forum allows users to post the lyrics & chords for original songs - lots of fun.

For me, music is one of the things that 'keeps me going' and helps me to be a happy and productive human being.  If I were unable to tickle my musical funny bone every day, it would be a radical and unpleasant change in my life.  If your spouse is unable to appreciate that about you, then it is something he will have to somehow come to grips with . . . he should be bragging about what a creative musician and supportive life-partner you are rather than resenting your talents and your desire to do better.  James

"That darn Pythagorean Comma thing keeps messing me up!"
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma[/url]

17 (edited by dulcimermike52 2007-08-20 23:42:34)

Re: Jealous spouses...

Does she have anything she loves to do? Does she listen to music that much, sing along with her favorite songs? What would she rather you be doing? Fixing up the bathroom? Paint a room? Spending more time with her doing......WHAT???

I didn't play any instrument while the ex and I were together, but she would complain about me building aircraft models, saying it was childish, and that I should go out "drinking with the guys". Yet she would sit for hours with a pile of mindless books (first science fiction and then spy thrillers) and not see anything wrong with that.

If she is into music, and has some favorite songs, learn them. Maybe she'll sing along with them, (If she can sing).

Re: Jealous spouses...

Hi Kath,
As an alcoholic that has been sober for 18 years I feel for you. I can only give you advice that has worked for me. First of all you cannot change your husband. Only he can do it. I'm sorry to say that I have no sympathy for people that have an addiction and don't take charge of their lives. If your husband really wanted to stop he would, not for you, not for the kids, but for himself. Alcoholics are selfish and will lie through their teeth to avoid confronting their own problems.

You are only responsable for your own happiness. Once you make positive changes for yourself you will be able to live life to the fullest. You and your children deserve better. Give them and yourself the quality of life that you deserve. Please get help for yourself, you can do it! Life is too short to compomise on all it can offer. Many have done it and so can you. Your husbands drinking is just the beginning. When I became sober I had so much to learn about myself, I really didn't know who I truely was. This takes time and effort. I also stopped for myself and not for anyone else. It's the only way.

Always remember that things do get better, I always tell myself that if all the Sh!t I went through was the only path to the wonderfull life I now have I would not change a thing. We all have the ability to grow, it is up to us to take charge of our own lives and give ouselves our just reward.

Please find help, not al-anon but professional help. Be honest with yourself, ask yourself all the hard questions that force us to mature.

My thoughts are with you and the children, find your inner strength and all will be well.
Michel

I may be goin' to hell in a bucket babe

Re: Jealous spouses...

Hi Kath, I'd like to e mail you privately, is that ok???
Thinking of you

aka ......   Boxer Petal....<3

Re: Jealous spouses...

Yes its fine...I am more than delighted to recieve "mail" from friends!!

HAVE YOU
     HUGGED YOUR GUITAR
                                 TODAY??

Re: Jealous spouses...

Hi Kath,
I hope life is good for you one day at a time at least!!
There is not as much about the Quinn Name as i expected in my book anyway!
This could be due to the fact there are so many from the  different regions here, both North and South... They need a book all to themselves! There are also a lot of different Crest?  which to me  is some what unusual.. They must have been a very individual lot?
Here are some links for you to peruse at your leisure...I have been to "Adare Manor" one of the seats of the quinn clan. Fantastic Place to visit and Stay. Old but fab and somewhat expensive! But worth the visit.

Quinn Name.

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/QU … 0904769154
Quinn Crests.
http://www.araltas.com/features/quinn/index.html
Adare Manor
www.lhw.com/AdareManor


Kath, my Email is also available for you anytime.
Barróga agus Pogá.
Slán
Old Doll.

Why Blend in with the Crowd ? When you were made to stand out !

Re: Jealous spouses...

detman, its freaky but you could be talking bout me. same problem mate, husband not gutair, ive been playing gutair for about 12 years and in all that time never once has my husband gave any support or even comment on one single piece of music i was playing except to say where i was going wrong. few years ago, under the influence, he admitted he was jealous of my musical ability. denieded it afterwards, but that explained so much. think we should get together and write a song about it. noticed you adress your subject as fellow chordians, i do the same.  freaky!

Re: Jealous spouses...

I can always get a new girl.  New guitars are harder to come by...

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: Jealous spouses...

damn right, and more reliable than men

Re: Jealous spouses...

ive heard it say, men are like a garden, they need a good digging now and then.  plato couldnt of put it better