Topic: I think I want to mic my guitar

So, I MIGHT be getting into a band, but I might not.  LOL!  Either way, I'm a little picky about the sound of my guitar.  Pick ups seem to make it sound like an electric, and I don't like that.  So, I'm thinking of putting a mic on it instead.  Any suggestions on a decent, but not toooo terrribly high priced mic for an acoustic?  I know they sell little ones like a pick up, would that be better than a stand?  Also going to need a decent vocal mic and amp to run these to.  Nothing too fancy.  I just want to amplify my sound.  There's a sound guy with a giant board to handle the rest.  I don't really know the first thing about all that, nor do I think I want to!  LOL!

Thanks Guys!

Amy

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

A pickup won't color your tone all that much, and the amplifier is going to color your tone as well, so keep that in mind.   Adding the amp (and pre-amp, if you go that way) gives you a some control over your tone that you wouldn't have had before.

There are a whole lot of tone hole mics to choose from, but you might want to consider a bridge peizieo instead.   Acoustics are prone to feeding back on stage, particularly if you use stage monitors,  so a common thing is to put a rubber or plastic seal over the sound hole.    If you do that, you can't use a sound hole mic.  The other benefit of the bridge piezieo is that it's invisible.    If you aren't plugged in, you don't see it at all.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

So, you're saying I need to take my guitar in and try different pick ups with different amps probably huh?  I tried one at a friend's yesterday and my guitar - on clean setting on his amp, with tons of tweaking - sounded like an electric.  I didn't like it.  sad

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

You can get a mic pickup that goes inside guitar, but it's not cheap.  LR Baggs makes one - the Anthem I think it's called. 

No matter what, you're going to have the sound modified some.  A mic to an acoustic amp, and then mic'ing the amp and sending that mic signal to the board is about the closest you're going to get to amplifying the natural sound of your guitar, but any cable, pickup, mic, etc. will alter the tone a little bit. 

You can also mic the guitar and send it straight to the board, or through a pre-amp, but unless everything is super clean, you're still going to get some "color" as Jerome put it. 

That said, think Shure for mics.  SM57 is very popular for guitars. 

Expect feedback.  You won't be able to move much once the monitors and everything are set during sound check. 

The convenient thing about having an extra mic is that it probably has an extra mic stand, which gives you another place to hang a drink holder.

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessor … microphone

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessor … one?pfm=sp

There are a couple options from Musician's Friend.  I don't care one way or another about the seller, but just giving you an idea on some products that will fit in the soundhole of the guitar and hopefully provide a clean sound. 

There's the whole idea of just pointing a cardiod microphone right at the soundhole, or a dynamic mic if you want to pick up some of the other stage noise with the closest (guitar) being loudest. 

I'd rather see you not use them both through the same pre-amp, because then you'll just have one signal from the pre-amp to the board.  If you boost the signal of one or the other to get the sound you want in your monitor, it will affect settings at the board too, forcing adjustments there as well, except those adjustments will be audible to the audience and not just in your monitor. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

mekidsmom wrote:

So, you're saying I need to take my guitar in and try different pick ups with different amps probably huh?  I tried one at a friend's yesterday and my guitar - on clean setting on his amp, with tons of tweaking - sounded like an electric.  I didn't like it.  sad

Well, the best thing there is to try another amp.  smile

Another thing to consider is that your unplugged acoustic doesn't sound the same to you as it does to someone sitting in front of you.   Kind of how the voice you hear in your head when you sing sounds different than the voice on tape when you record.  Your position over the guitar gives it a certain sound that may not be the same one you get out of an amp, even if it were perfectly set up.

What I would do is go play different guitars with different pickup types, and through different amp setups.   As Zurf notes, any amplification is going to change the way the guitar tone sounds, so find the one that works best for you.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Ok.  So this is a TON of good info Zurf!  I don't know the first thing about the first thing.  LOL!  I was thinking an amp just to get used to hearing myself amplified... and figured, if I want to use my guitar on stage w/ a whole band then I'll need my own gear of course.  So... I get a mic or what not, that can go right to the board?  Or do I need to go thru an amp first?  Should I really be looking at two amps then for band purposes?

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

It sounds like you ran it in to an electric guitar amp on clean? That's going to make your tone sound like an electric guitar amp on clean, as earlier posters have said. smile

I would get a pickup and preamp with a powered wedge or small PA system rather than an acoustic amp. I run vox and 1 guitar in to this and it sounds just dandy with an aftermarket on-board preamp and pickup...I believe it is an LR Baggs.  http://www.zzounds.com/item--ROLKC60

I think the pickup is one of these fellas: http://www.lrbaggs.com/pickups/element- … tar-pickup

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

The way a sound board works is that it gets an input.  That input goes through a series of modifications, or can be left clean.  If modified, it can be modified on the channel (the specific input and that input only), or it can be lumped together with all the rest of the inputs and all of them modified the same.  Then it gets output two ways.  One output is to a series of monitors.  The other output is to the speakers that make noise in the house. 

Monitor outputs are usually either to an in-ear monitor, or to a small box on the stage.  In either case, they are meant for one person to hear.  The little boxes on stage are highly directional in how they produce sound.  Big dang speakers that thump whole rooms are direct sound widely.  This is the biggest difference between a monitor and a speaker. 

Sound is mixed differently into every monitor.  The lead guitar player has a completely different mix in his/her monitor than the drummer or the bass player or the vocalist.  For example, when I was in a band, the rhythm guitarist was also our lead vocalist.  She did not like to hear bass in her monitor.  She wanted to set the rhythm, not react to it.  As the bassist, and knowing that she wanted to set the rhythm, I had to have her guitar in my mix loudly, and I also had the vocals and lead guitar so that I could hear them.  The drummer didn't have anyone in his mix and just banged on the drums.  The lead guitarist had the bass so loud that I often got in trouble for having my on-stage amp up too loud.

So, each member of the band had a different mix that they were listening to, and then the floor speakers had a completely different mix.  Often sound board guys will wear headphones so that they can only hear the mix that's going to the floor speakers instead of the floor speakers themselves (which has a little bit different sound depending on the acoustics of the venue). 

So, now you've got that. 

How do you get the signal from your mouth or your fingers to the board so that the board tech can do all this tweaking, mixing, and distributing to various boxes both big and little? 

That's done with cords. It can be done cordlessly, but then radio signals take the place of cords.  So let's just pretend everything has cords.  You sing into a mic.  The mic converts your voice to analog signals.  Those analog signals travel down the mic cord to a flat box with a bunch of numbered plugs on the floor of the stage.  That flat box is attached to a bunch of cables that run to the sound board and ends at a series of numbered jacks.  That flat box and the cable all the way to the box is called a snake.  Let's say your mic is plugged into jack 1 on the snake.  At the sound board end, there's an XLR jack with the number 1 on it.  That goes into channel 1 on the board.  Then the sound guy can modify that analog input from your mic by pushing it left or right in the floor mix, or boost the low end, or cut back the high treble range, or put a little reverb on it, or make you sound like a robot, or whatnot.  Take the simple case of plugging your guitar into the snake instead of a pre-amp or amp.  It goes the same way into channel 2.  Now lets keep it simple and say that you're playing with just a bass player who doesn't sing, and so there's just one more instrument plugged into the snake on channel 3. 

At this point, you would not be able to hear the bassist at all.  The floor speakers are designed to make sound go out to the floor, not to sound good on the stage.  So if you're singing and playing, you need to know what the bassist is doing and vice versa.  That's where the monitors come in.  You will each have a monitor on stage pointed at you or in your ear.  Box monitors are easier to describe, so I'm going to go with that.  The sound guy will listen to your directions and mix your voice on channel 1 up pretty high so you can adjust on the fly, your guitar on channel 2 for whatever reason you want to hear your guitar in the mix when you'll kind of a little bit be able to hear it acoustically, and the bass kind of loud because that is the only way you're going to hear it on channel 3 so that it sounds a way that you need to hear it to keep track of how it all sounds.  That will be output to your monitor, which is highly directional and pointed straight at you.  The bassist will probably want to hear what rhythm you're playing on the guitar the loudest, what he's doing on bass mixed under that, and your voice probably pretty low in the mix unless he's going to need verbal cues.  So you're each going to experience the sound of that concert completely differently, and neither of you are going to hear it the way you'd want to if you were in the audience.  The sound board guy is going to put that mix to something that sounds good and you will not have any way of knowing what that is until you hear the playback tapes (and even then maybe not because they can usually have yet another mix).   

Let's start to complicate it.  You can put your mic and guitar to a pre-amp that will allow you to modify and mix the signal that goes to the snake.  You'll usually have only one output on the pre-amp to the snake (though there are multi-channel pre-amps). 

We can complicate even more.  Let's pretend that you're Brian Seltzer.  He likes to play his guitars clean and use different amps to get different sounds.  So he's going to have a bunch of amps on the stage, and a bunch of guitars on the stage.  To get those clean signals to the snake, the best way to do that is to mic the guitar amp.  But if you make changes to the tone or volume settings on the guitar or on the amp, those are going to go right to the mic.  A lot of guitarists who like a tube amp sound take this approach.  It's very common to see a practice size amp on stage with a mic in front of it.  This is the reason.  The guitarist wants the particular sound of that amp, and woe be unto the sound man who alters the channel in the mix. 

In ear monitors add another level of complexities because they often have a means to remix the signal from the board for the individual listener. 

Whenever something in all of this goes wrong, all sound techs begin to check wire connections, which they do for 45 minutes before they realize that they forgot to push the button.  Then they unplug a cord, plug it back in, say "that ought to do it", create a sound disturbance to make everyone look away from the sound board, then they push the button when no one is looking.  It is never the cord.  It is always the button.  The cord will always be blamed. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

hi amy, i deliberately haven't read what the other guys have said not to colour what i want to say.

you say you may join a band...great, you also mention a sound guy with a large mixing desk, even better. then you want advice on mics and amps for your guitar and vocal?

so if this mixer guy has a big mixer and presumably a large PA system to go with it, why would you need a personal amp? my advice would be (if he does have a PA system) get a decent pick-up or mic and plug directly into the PA. you should also get a better sound than a guitar amp.

it's always worth buying a good vocal mic.

if he doen't have a PA, bigger is always best, as you can turn down for small venues, but if you have a small system you cant turn up for bigger ones! and plug your guitar into it as well.

looking forward to hearing some band recordings.

phill

Ask not what Chordie can do for you, but what you can do for Chordie.

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

I think I'd just buy an A/E...

Rule No. 1 - If it sounds good - it is good!

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Hi Amy,  Lets see if I can confuse you a little more. All good and valuable info above.... so well worth considering.  I'm thinking I'm a lot like you, kind of a minimalist who really likes the tone and sound of the instrument you own.  For my money, and I have installed a few of these with good results, K&K under bridge pickups are it.  Doesn't change the sound of the guitar, are fairly inexpensive, totally passive (no battery to change or have stuck inside the guitar), fairly easy to remove without leaving holes or other evidence.

Basically three little microphones mounted underneath the bridge that transport the vibrations out to whatever amp/effects hardware en-route to the PA. No dials no twiddling or fiddling, everything happens at the mixer unless you insert something in the chain.

As for a vocal mic, you will want to try as many as you can (the same for your guitar for that matter). Brands and models will vary in frequency response and be stronger in some frequency ranges (a good thing if you need a little push in some areas and less in others).  A good vocal mic that fits your voice can really let you get the best you have out there and even out the rough spots.  Some filtering is done at the soundboard, but you have some control of what gets there by having a personal mic.

Either way, it sounds like a fun way to spend your shopping weekend!

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

THANK YOU ALL!!! 
I seriously wasnt sure how all the hooking up to everything worked.   The sound guy is also versed in MANY instruments and is the one that asked if I would be interested.  They need vocals more than anything else, and my strumming is welcome.  This is not a done deal, just a conversation at this point and invitation to jam.  The guy ownes everything to electrify an entire band.  Mics, a gazillion cords, amps, pa, the whole shebang.  Yes, he did just plug the pick up into his bass amp first, then we tried the electic guitar amp.  I didnt like the sound of either.  As for me having an amp, well... that's for me for maybe future stuff, mainly because I figure if I own a pick up I ought to own something to use it with, and because I wasnt sure if it was necessary.  Now I know its not.  smile  But I still want one,  lol.  Sounds like I dont have to worry too much right away, but now I am feeling back to square one ... for personal and possibly future use.... mic or pick up?  I will take a look into the links some of you provided.  Thank you  smile

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Buddy of mine got one of these back in the 90s,  http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessor … cer?pfm=sp
it sounds clean but I like Doug's suggestion.  you might want to look into this also http://guitarfuel.com/Acoustic_Preamp.php  prices look pretty good.
  NOW on the mic, Sure sm57s are great,, but $$$ usually comes into the play  here also.   sure sm57 99 bucks and http://www.fullcompass.com/product/2833 … 7Aodyj8AOw xm8500 = 20 to 30 bucks
dont know the quality but this looks good also http://www.musiciansfriend.com/dynamic- … ree?pfm=sp

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

tell them you only play unplugged. Lucky band too get a lady with your singing talent.

my papy said son your going too drive me too drinking if you dont stop driving that   Hot  Rod  Lincoln!! Cmdr cody and his lost planet airman

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Yeah Beamer, you can go crazy buying mics.  I've got seven of them and each one has it's own personality and specific use.
A pair of Akai cartoids for mostly miking amps and cabinets, a pair of Shur SM58s one wired and one wireless, a technica and an AKG, and the big MXL for studio work.  That's what I've pared it down to.  The 4X12 cab and Marshall head went away, replaced by a nice little 2X12 combo. Still packing the old Fender tube amp (yeah I kinda like the sound) for close in work and rehearsals. Five channel mixer with effects, monitor speakers and PA, Harmony G vocal synthesizer, Midi control board, and all the wiring, stands, guitars, etc.. 

I'm still working on reducing that load though... getting too old and weak to move all that in and out of the van. Crap I'm winded from just typing that, much less hauling it.

I guess there is a moral... shop wisely, spend carefully, more stuff don't make you better.... only practice will.

Take Care;
Doug

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare

17 (edited by Grah1 2014-05-06 06:26:40)

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Amy   for  what  its  worth we  use  2 acoustic instruments  in our  set  Brian has a mandolin  with  a  contact   pickup ,and  I  use an Ovation acoustic  with an under bridge  Fishman pick up  both  of  these  we  just connect  into  the  PA with  Di  boxes   this  is  the  best  way  we  have  found , sure   the  sound  can get  a  little  colored  but its  live and  you  wont  ever  get  it  as  good  as  in the  studio , its  something  you  have  get  used  to . Ive seen so many  bands  prat  about  with  sound  checks  trying  to replicate  studio  sound . we  spent  6 hours  last  year   waiting  for  one  lot  to get  off stage .As long  as  you  can hear  what  you  are  playing  and  singing and  what  your    other  band members  are  doing  then   go  with  it . Your  on stage  sound  wont    be  what  the   audience  hear  .Our  sound  guy  Vassilis  always  gets  the mix  that  the  audience  here  good  so  if  you  have  a  good  guy  on the  desk  trust  him to  do  his  job ,it  takes  away  a lot of  the  stress  of  performing  live .
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/s526x395/10294436_10152387619387863_1780545296399988321_n.jpg

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

OK... so technically I don't NEED anything.  He has all the monitors and mics anyone could want.  BUT... I had been thinking of putting a pick up on my guitar anyway, and was considering different amps for a while now.  Doug, I think I might just try that one you suggested.  It's got a LOT of awesome reviews.  Here's my new question... although he has everything, isn't it proper etiquette to come with my own monitor and microphone?  Or am I just trying to be too PC?  What do you guys think of this:  http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B205D.aspx  -- looks like more than a decent monitor, plus for fiddling around/practice/maybe at some point doing something on my own, it's cheaper than going through and getting a special acoustic amp (they all seem to be in the $300 range), plus it can double as a monitor, should work good for my immediate wants/needs as well as anything small I might do on my own in the future.  Plus, there's no DI necessary.  I get that the controls will be for everything plugged into it, not individual EQ.  It's not a "do it all" but, for simple me it kind of is.  I think.  Thoughts?

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

19 (edited by Doug_Smith 2014-05-06 22:52:06)

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Hi Amy,  Thanks for the consideration.  Took a look at that Behringer monitor, and have a concern.  First you should know that Behringer stuff is really good for the $$... so I would consider them for a source brand.  The model you indicated is lacking in one respect, it does not have a 1/4 TS connector or pass through for your guitar, only XLR for microphones.  That may not be a problem for on stage as your tech can send you a return from the mixing board, but at home and in use for your own little projects, no instrument input could be interesting.  I do have a 1/4 TS to XLR adapter that I put together that gets by that so there is a work-around, but it is another thing to fail or get misplaced, or go into hiding when not in use.

On the UP-side, 150 Watts is a lot of punch and you sure would not lack for power outbound to other speakers that you might add later.  No dedicated amplifier needed!  It seems that Behringer has a tendency to put RCA inputs in most of their stuff, which is nice for feeding backing tracks and other media into the stream.

Good Hunting;
Doug

Correction:  I misspoke... the inputs are all XLR/TRS so Will accept standard 1/4" cables without adapters.  Sweetwater lists them at $199 which is a pretty good price IMO.  Compare to the Roland Cube at around $699...no contest.

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

I love Behringer stuff.  They blatantly rip off Mackie and provide that at about half the price.

I've got a set of Pyle 103's that I'm pretty happy with.

http://www.amazon.com/PYLE-PRO-PPHP103M … +PPHP103MU

The 1/4" jack is a bit weak, but it's otherwise a solid set of speakers, and they double nicely as stage monitors.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

I agree Jerome!  Behringer is good stuff, I think they are still using Bulgara speakers in most of their equipment and those things are TOUGH.  Excellent frequency response and can rattle the windows clear across town without ripping their own guts out.  Some things on them are plastic when metal would be better, but if you don't abuse your gear, it'll last.

Take Care;
Doug

"what is this quintessence of dust?"  - Shakespeare

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Here is a funny.   I have a bunch of Behringer stuff and get good use out of it.  I can't use it on stage, though.   The guy that plays guitar in the band is an industrial designer by trade, and created the Mackie VLZ series mixer's control layout.   He's mad about Behringer copying the Mackie designs.  I keep trying to tell him that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, but he's having none of it.    big_smile

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Pete Benson uses a mic with his Martin and it still sounds like all acoustic,you might try asking him what he has.

my papy said son your going too drive me too drinking if you dont stop driving that   Hot  Rod  Lincoln!! Cmdr cody and his lost planet airman

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

Doug_Smith wrote:

I agree Jerome!  Behringer is good stuff, I think they are still using Bulgara speakers in most of their equipment and those things are TOUGH.  Excellent frequency response and can rattle the windows clear across town without ripping their own guts out.  Some things on them are plastic when metal would be better, but if you don't abuse your gear, it'll last.

Take Care;
Doug

Yes they are using Bugera speakers,, Matter of fact their whole valve amp line is named Bugera.  I have the V5.  and I have a 60w  BERHINGER 1X12.

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)

Re: I think I want to mic my guitar

jerome.oneil wrote:

Here is a funny.   I have a bunch of Behringer stuff and get good use out of it.  I can't use it on stage, though.   The guy that plays guitar in the band is an industrial designer by trade, and created the Mackie VLZ series mixer's control layout.   He's mad about Behringer copying the Mackie designs.  I keep trying to tell him that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, but he's having none of it.    big_smile

AND THEY  RIP MARSHALL AND BOOGIE ON THE AMPS lolol WHEN IT COMES TO THE $$ THEY ARE GOING TO WIN EVERY TIME. Their effects are pretty great too.

“Find your own sound.  Dont be a second rateYngwie Malmsteen be a first rate you”

– George Lynch 2013 (Dokken, Lynchmob, KXM, Tooth & Nail etc....)