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Guitar chord forum - chordie → Chordie's Chat Corner → Back! Foul Temptress!
http://augusta.craigslist.org/msg/2869712854.html
A nice Martin 000-15 for $500. Of course I am traveling and cannot seize this excellent deal. Good luck someone.
If it's still around when I return in a week my wife may not get a new iPad after all! Or the iPad will look a helluva lot like a mahogany guitar.:)
dj
Looks like an excellent deal for someone.
That's a sapele one and doesn't appear to be that good of a grade either.... I'd hold out for a true mahogany model, they'll be worth much more in the future.
Notice the defined ribbons (streaks in the wood), True mahogany looks like this 
Nao now you got me thinking,that is well within my Martin money range,is this the same model amy just bought? How safe is it buying from craigslist?
The mahogany guitars from Martin are identified as a 000-15M. They are not just a 000-15. Chris has probably nailed it. Nothing wrong with sapelle. It's a great sounding wood. But, if you are looking for mahogany, you want a 15M.
- Zurf
I think it can be confusing the way that wood is described. From what I read, a guitar made of sapele can properly be called mahogany, but it will look different from typical mahogany (as Guitar Pix showed us).
Here's some info about mahogany I found on a guitar website:
"Mahogany is a correct name for ANY hardwood belonging to the family Meliaceae.
"Sapele and common Mahoganies are of different genera but both (and many other woods) are of the mahogany Family: Meliaceae.
"Mahogany was first used in the New World for two species of the genus Swietenia, namely Swietenia mahagoni (West Indian Mahogany) from the Caribbean and Swietenia macrophylla (Honduras Mahogany) from Central and South America.
"One Mahogany is Sapele, Entandrophragma cylindricum, from South East Asia. It is a medium reddish-brown hardwood with a marked stripe figure.
"The Mahogany name is also used for species from the African genera Entandophragma, Guarea and Khaya, and the Asian genus Toona (Phillipine Mahogany and others).
"Here is a description from Albert Constantine Jr.'s "Know Your Woods" book, first published in 1959: SAPELE (Entandrophragma cylindricum)
This species is also known as Aboudikrou, Sapele Mahogany, Sipo, and Tiama. Sapele grows in Nigeria and along the African Ivory Coast. It is a large tree and logs often come as much as 72 in. in diameter, though the usual range in the market is 30 to 36 in. The color of the wood is a dark reddish-brown with a very strong stripe and at times the grain is very irregular. This irregularity causes the plum pudding and blister figures so highly prized in the veneer field.
"The wood is very fine in texture and care has to be taken in the seasoning as it warps badly. Sometimes it is mistaken for African mahogany and is used as such; HOWEVER , IT IS HARDER AND HEAVIER, weighing from 35 to 40 lbs. per cubic foot, AND THE STRIPE IS MUCH MORE PRONOUNCED. Sapele is superior to either African or American mahogany in strength and is somewhat similar to the strength of our American oak. Sapele is used for interior paneling and also in general furniture work."
One thing I learned is that Martin had been making the 00015 out of sapele a few years ago. Then they stopped making that model, and in 2011, started making it again, this time using only traditional mahogany. So, if the Craigs List guy is selling a 00015 and it's made out of sapele (which by the picture, it sure looks like it) than it can't be a 2011 model (at least according to the source I found--which may be wrong!).
I think it can be confusing the way that wood is described. From what I read, a guitar made of sapele can properly be called mahogany, but it will look different from typical mahogany (as Guitar Pix showed us).
Here's some info about mahogany I found on a guitar website:
"Mahogany is a correct name for ANY hardwood belonging to the family Meliaceae.
"Sapele and common Mahoganies are of different genera but both (and many other woods) are of the mahogany Family: Meliaceae.
"Mahogany was first used in the New World for two species of the genus Swietenia, namely Swietenia mahagoni (West Indian Mahogany) from the Caribbean and Swietenia macrophylla (Honduras Mahogany) from Central and South America.
"One Mahogany is Sapele, Entandrophragma cylindricum, from South East Asia. It is a medium reddish-brown hardwood with a marked stripe figure.
"The Mahogany name is also used for species from the African genera Entandophragma, Guarea and Khaya, and the Asian genus Toona (Phillipine Mahogany and others).
"Here is a description from Albert Constantine Jr.'s "Know Your Woods" book, first published in 1959: SAPELE (Entandrophragma cylindricum)
This species is also known as Aboudikrou, Sapele Mahogany, Sipo, and Tiama. Sapele grows in Nigeria and along the African Ivory Coast. It is a large tree and logs often come as much as 72 in. in diameter, though the usual range in the market is 30 to 36 in. The color of the wood is a dark reddish-brown with a very strong stripe and at times the grain is very irregular. This irregularity causes the plum pudding and blister figures so highly prized in the veneer field."The wood is very fine in texture and care has to be taken in the seasoning as it warps badly. Sometimes it is mistaken for African mahogany and is used as such; HOWEVER , IT IS HARDER AND HEAVIER, weighing from 35 to 40 lbs. per cubic foot, AND THE STRIPE IS MUCH MORE PRONOUNCED. Sapele is superior to either African or American mahogany in strength and is somewhat similar to the strength of our American oak. Sapele is used for interior paneling and also in general furniture work."
One thing I learned is that Martin had been making the 00015 out of sapele a few years ago. Then they stopped making that model, and in 2011, started making it again, this time using only traditional mahogany. So, if the Craigs List guy is selling a 00015 and it's made out of sapele (which by the picture, it sure looks like it) than it can't be a 2011 model (at least according to the source I found--which may be wrong!).
WOW ! You really did your homework
ALMOST the same model Dino, but not quite.
Zurf and Chris are right. Be careful Nao! From what I read, as of 2010 Martin started making ALL the 15 series from Genuine Mahogany (although I could be wrong, and MB may be right about it being 2011). Either way, when they started doing this they "changed" the names of the models to include the "M". I do NOT doubt one bit that the older models are EXCELLENT guitars, but if it's Mahogany you have on the brain, make sure you get the M. Also, the older model 000-15 has the CIRCLE dot inlays (as in that craigslist post) and the newer ones like mine have diamond dot inlays. The older ones have the paper model "sticker" on the inside such in the craigslist picture, the newer ones do not (the info is simply in the wood itself, no sticker to be found).
I looked all the differences up when I was buying mine to be certain that I was getting the REAL DEAL after Chris alerted me to the fact that many Mahoganny guitars are really sapele. So keep your eyes open. The older models went for around $700-800 new, the newer model will be found for $1100-1400. $500 seems a nice fair price for that guitar, and again I say... I am SURE it's a great guitar, but keep your eyes on the prize as it seems it's the true 000-15M you're after! 
Good luck!!!!
I like the looks of traditional mahagony more than sapele, but from what I've read, the sound quality is very similar. I think $500 for a all solid-wood martin is an excellent price. If I had a hundred dollars, all I'd need is four hundred more and I'd buy it!!
No doubt in my mind this is a sapele model. I usually look for the paper label to read "Mahogany top". I read somewhere Martin typically would not mix sapele back/sides with a mahogany top so if the lable says mahogany I think it's safe to assume it's the real deal.
The 15Ms are also the real deal as indicated by the $1100 price tag. Used one can expect to pay $900 or so depending on many things.
i don't have problem with sapele. I do have a problem with Martin's game of semantics. I think it's bordering on being disingenuous.
dj
Joey3,
You wrote that I really did my homework--if only algebra was as interesting as learning about guitars then I'd be an A student!
I think I will wait and go to my local dealers,I would be violating my rule about buying a guitar on the web,meanwhile I am getting a good education about wood's.
M.B.
I apologize for not commenting on your EXCELLENT research. In the acoustic guitar world - on the Internet at least - there is no shortage of debate on this very subject. I usually avoid getting involved but I will say your comment/research is the first ever rational, thorough adjunct to the conversation. I rather enjoyed reading it.
M.B. et al:
I have knowingly owned at least two sapele guitars. One was a gem and one was not but this conclusion had more to do with the overall construction, etc. then it did the wood. I am attracted to the Martin 15 series guitars and I see one in my future. It will be mahogany, most likely a 000-15M or 0000-15M although the ubiquity of the D-15M could make it a candidate. I wouldn't rule out a 12-fretter either: 000-15SM or D-15SM.
Therefore I will pass on the Craig's List opportunity.
Thanks to all especially our algebra student and wood scholar, M.B.!
dj
Trivia question. Can anyone tell me where this post title comes from? Hint: one of the BEST movies of all time!
p.s. Don't be alarmed by my funky posting times. I do sleep. It's just I'm back in eastern Europe for the week. Sans guitar I'm sad to report.
It comes from Hamlet, which was a bit before movies came around.
- Zurf
"Back, foul temptress"? No, it's not from "Hamlet"--does it have something to do with "Dungeons and Dragons"?
"Back, foul temptress"? No, it's not from "Hamlet"--does it have something to do with "Dungeons and Dragons"?
Perhaps "The Tempest" then. It's definitely Shakespeare. I thought it was Hamlet where the lady is encouraging him to kill the king.
- Zurf
Monty Python????
OK. So I've been looking around on Shakespeare sites and can't find it. Perhaps it did originate in "Monty Python's Holy Grail."
Did it originate with "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"? Well, yes and no. The original line goes, "Silence, foul temptress!"
Here's the scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtcSYPjJbgg
Those old-timey ladies sure liked to be spanked!
M.B.,
Excellent. I am impressed...and stand corrected.
Another foul temptress:
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/msg/2965083761.html
dj
p.s. Leaving for the U.S. in a few hours.
...or maybe TWO of these.
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/msg/2965617036.html
I'm glad I'm out of town.
There ya go Nao! Bonus - pick up and strap peg... as long as they were done right... and at $800 used, if guitar is still in excellent condition that sounds like a fair price! BONUS.. it's a real M!!!!
Wow. A Guild with a bonus Guild for the price of a single Guild is a SWEET deal! It's a good thing I don't live in Atlanta.
- Zurf
Sorry about "cheating" on Chordie but I do occasionally "drive by" other forums. I thought M.B. - the Chordie wood scholar - would find this humorous:
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru … p?t=248644
Yet another lengthy discussion on sapele versus mahogany. One could spend a lifetime debating woods, scale lengths, strings, picks, nut widths, fretboard radii, solid versus laminate, spruce versus cedar versus mahogany. It is so easy to get wrapped up in these debates, and while sometimes amusing, what a waste of time when we all could be playing.
dj
p.s. THIS is what I mean when I use the phrase "all wrapped around the axle" or my abbreviated version "axle wrappage".
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