Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I wish that treaty still held true.  We'd still have the twin towers and a lot less mourning in this country.  That's got nothing to do with the current topic, so please excuse my thread-jacking.  I was just surprised to see a 1796 treaty with Mahometan (assuming that is Mohamedan) agreeing not to fight over religious differences. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

While only 9 signers were CONFIRMED masons, 13 became masons after the signing, and 10 were probable masons, but no documentation of confirmation can be found, so the number could be as high as 32 of the 56 signers.
Many of the most prominent founders were masons, including Washington, Hancock, Franklin, Locke and many, many others. They were less than flattering to religion of any sort.
To make the claim that the founders were guided by Christian principles is simply not true. One only has to read the voluminous quotes available from them about religion and Christianity, spoken before, during and after the American Revolution to understand how untrue a statement that is.

However, I will say that, like them, I would be willing to die to preserve your right to worship or not worship as you see fit, having spent 9 years in the military. Can you say the same, with your religious background, that you would be willing to die to defend my right to deny deity, if I so desired?

This , then, is the crux of what a true, constitutionally grounded American should be; Tolerant of others views and beliefs, and willing to allow fellow citizens the rights that you claim for yourself. Tnere is no other way to function under the constitution.

My beef with Christians and politics is this. Have you ever heard of an avowed atheist even running for public office? The freedom-loving religious right would run him/her out of town on a rail, despite whatever good qualities they posessed for the public office they would seek.

This may also explain why many, many politicians claim to be Christian, but are, in reality, no more Christian than I am. Please, don't get me started on hypocritical, pious politicians, for I am sure to offend everyone.

Hank's prosepctive gutiar player said: "Mr Williams, I'm not sure I can play for you, the onliest chords I know are C D & G"
Hank repleis, after a short pause: "Well, what else is there?"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

LOL.  You hit religion and politics but you left out sex WW.

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Boy, I opened a Pandoras box. This all started because I thought that Red Skeltons telling about the pledge should be shown in schools. And if one doesn`t believe in god,keep your mouth shut when the words "under god" comes up in the pledge.

Enjoy Every Sandwich
Nothing In Moderation  -- Live Fast. Love Hard. Die Young And Leave A Beautiful Corpse. -- Buy It Today. Cry About It Tomorrow.

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Russell_Harding wrote:

Jerome I beg to differ and I offer some quotes from the founding fathers and signers of the declaration of independance these are but a few there are more.
http://www.free2pray.info/5founderquotes.html

If that were true, why then, after the formation of not just one, but two different governments (remember the Articles of Confederation prior to the current Constitution) wasn't it simply codified into law?   The notion that the founders were some sort of pious Christian group is demonstrably false in most cases, but the most convincing evidence is the simple lack of it in the Constitution itself.

The Constitution requires that the congress can not pass laws favoring or impeding any religion at all.  Why didn't they say "Christianity is the official religion of our country?"  The Constitution states that there shall be no religious test for any public office.  Why didn't they state "All holders of public office must be members in good standing of the Church?"

They were forming a new government.  These were highly learned and literate men.  If they wanted a government guided by Christian principles, don't you think they could have written that down, instead of what they actually did write down?

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Zurf wrote:

LOL.  You hit religion and politics but you left out sex WW.

Ben Franklin is widely regarded as the nations first freak.  smile

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

joeyjoeyjoey wrote:

Boy, I opened a Pandoras box. This all started because I thought that Red Skeltons telling about the pledge should be shown in schools. And if one doesn`t believe in god,keep your mouth shut when the words "under god" comes up in the pledge.

* looks on the other side of that coin *

If you believe in God, just say it to yourself when it doesn't come up, like in the original.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Jerome, that is so true. My point is that whether you believe in God or not. The rest of the pledge is still true. Unlike some countries,we are free to believe or not believe without being killed or tortured.

Enjoy Every Sandwich
Nothing In Moderation  -- Live Fast. Love Hard. Die Young And Leave A Beautiful Corpse. -- Buy It Today. Cry About It Tomorrow.

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Zurf wrote:

LOL.  You hit religion and politics but you left out sex WW.

Sex?  I vaguely remember someithing about that, in the dim recesses...

Hank's prosepctive gutiar player said: "Mr Williams, I'm not sure I can play for you, the onliest chords I know are C D & G"
Hank repleis, after a short pause: "Well, what else is there?"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

After reading some responses and researching some of the links I have to admit I was wrong our founding fathers were all heathens,alchoholics,athiests,womanizers and hypocrites kind of like whats in office today,I was looking at the origin of this great nation thru rose colored glasses and actually believing the constitution was composed by upstanding citizens but alas I was terribly mistaken thank you Jerome for your uplifting appraisal and insight I think I will have a cup of coco and curl up with my teddy bear secure in the  new found knowledge that there were no great men or visionaries and it was all a fluke goodnight America.

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Make no mistake.  They were great men.  Many of them self-educated, or at least partially.  They were zealous learners and intensely curious men.  They were also extremely bold to risk their lives and fortunes for their beliefs.  The women who stood beside them were powerful, smart, and capable businesswomen, handling family affairs, businesses, and households with boldness and creativity.  The stories of Abigail Adams and Martha Washington are as interesting as the stories of John and George.   They were all walking contradictions, as are most of us.  George Washington considered himself first a farmer.  All he really wanted to do was go home and play with his dogs.  Nevertheless, he was a cunning and determined general who won many victories.  Despite that, he was compassionate to his enemies.  When he found the enemy general's dog in his camp after a long day of battle, he sent the dog back along with a gentle note under cover of a white flag.  Given the chance, he'd have killed that general in battle.  At the end of the day, he compassionately returns his dog to him.  Go figure.  As walking contradictions, it should not surprise us that our wise, bold, curious, intelligent forefathers were also sometimes alcoholic womanizing heathens.  It all depends on where you want to focus.  It's also what makes history interesting. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

LOL Russ!!

"absolutely epic and really really loud" ~Zurf
                            ^
                      Life right?
Katie tongue

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

After just reading Dan Brown's book "The Lost Symbol" Freemasonary was and still is the most potent force in America today...
Though it is a work of fiction so it just maybe untrue... smile
ark

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Dan Brown is not an historian. He makes up a lot of crap.

Hank's prosepctive gutiar player said: "Mr Williams, I'm not sure I can play for you, the onliest chords I know are C D & G"
Hank repleis, after a short pause: "Well, what else is there?"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

whitewater55 wrote:

Dan Brown is not an historian. He makes up a lot of crap.

Well I think Dan Brown may just disagree with that broad statement of “Crap“. I don’t think he classes himself as Historian but he has Historians advising him on his books.
I personally believe that there is probably a grain of truth in what he writes couched in a low brow read.
The truth if it is out there is probably more bizarre than anything Dan Brown or any other fiction writer can cook up.
ark

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Funny reading from across the pond. Basically all western european culture (exept maybe parts of the spanish one) is based on and heavily defined by christan ideas, concepts and values.

It's not by chance that the ten commandments are found more or less in all laws pretty much anywhere.

And sorry to say so but: culturally you Americans are pretty western european. However: IF there is a version of the Pledge without the reference to god, in my humble opinion it should be reverted to this.

Because it is good to remember that our rules, motifs, ethics, culture, music etc. is heavily based upon and influenced by christian belief, there are very good reasons to keep church and state seperate.

Here in Germany religious education is mandatory in schools and the church(es) have the right to decide what does and doesn't belong there. Bugs me like that place below (the h*ll word may be unsuitable, I sometimes have a hard time knowing what is and isn't).

Ok, enough incoherent rambling from afar...

Cheers,

Tom

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Gee Tom.The 10 commandments are mostly common sense ways to behave. Except for believing,most are things that shouldn`t be done anyways. Whether I believe or not,I try to live by most of the commandments. I may be an atheist but it doesn`t make me a mean person or bad guy. As far as the pledge of allegiance goes, I still hold true to the under god part. If you don`t believe,just dont say under god when it comes up. If someone else believes and chooses to say under god, leave him alone and let them say it. To each his own.

Enjoy Every Sandwich
Nothing In Moderation  -- Live Fast. Love Hard. Die Young And Leave A Beautiful Corpse. -- Buy It Today. Cry About It Tomorrow.