Topic: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I don`t know if anyone has heard about the controversy over the pledge of allegiance being said in schools. Atheists have a problem with the words under god. I personally am all for the pledge being recited in schools. If you don`t believe in god, just keep your mouth shut when the under god part comes up. The rest of the pledge still holds true whether you are a believer or not.  I dont know how to put the link on but go on youtube and listen to Red Skelton recite the Pledge Of Allegiance from 1969. He tells exactly what it means and it is still relevant(now more than ever). This has nothing to do with believing in god or not. It has to do with the pledge. It`s great to know that we are a civilized group here and this will stay civil. Do yourselves a favor and listen to What Red Skelton said over 40 years ago.

Enjoy Every Sandwich
Nothing In Moderation  -- Live Fast. Love Hard. Die Young And Leave A Beautiful Corpse. -- Buy It Today. Cry About It Tomorrow.

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

JJJ,I agree with you on this matter.I used too watch red skelton all the time when I was a kid, he was a great human being.

my papy said son your going too drive me too drinking if you dont stop driving that   Hot  Rod  Lincoln!! Cmdr cody and his lost planet airman

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I'll search for Red Skelton.  I think it is useful to have the common experience shared by all Americans of knowing the pledge.  There are certain faiths that do not take pledges, and so I think as a matter of religious freedom they should not be required to take it.  I agree with you on the issue of atheists.  Just do not include 'under God' in the pledge when saying it.  However, at civil meetings (which include public school sessions), I think that reciting the pledge is a good idea. 

- Zurf

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Good find JJJ. You share my feelings on this. I didn't realize that under God was not in the original pledge. Here's the link  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBTyTWOZCM    Thanks again. I'll send this on to my son at Fort Campbell. I'm sure he'll enjoy it too.

Don't take life too seriously, you're not getting out alive anyway

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I agree wholeheartedly with Red. The pledge should be said by all Americans no matter what their beliefs are. As said before, if you don't agree with the "Under God" part then leave it out. But as an American you should show some respect to the flag and what it stands for.

Keep Rockin!!!!!!!!!!!

6 (edited by joeyjoeyjoey 2012-02-14 08:54:28)

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

bswyers wrote:

Good find JJJ. You share my feelings on this. I didn't realize that under God was not in the original pledge. Here's the link  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBTyTWOZCM    Thanks again. I'll send this on to my son at Fort Campbell. I'm sure he'll enjoy it too.

Thank You so much for putting the link up. Also for the record, I am an atheist. I am also an american. This isn`t an argument about God and I don`t want it to turn into one.

Enjoy Every Sandwich
Nothing In Moderation  -- Live Fast. Love Hard. Die Young And Leave A Beautiful Corpse. -- Buy It Today. Cry About It Tomorrow.

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Yea, the "under God" part was added in the early 1950's to show how we were different from the commies.
I'm from Canada, and our national anthem contains the words "God keep our land, glorious and free", but I have yet to hear an atheist complaint about the lyrics.

Hank's prosepctive gutiar player said: "Mr Williams, I'm not sure I can play for you, the onliest chords I know are C D & G"
Hank repleis, after a short pause: "Well, what else is there?"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

whitewater55 wrote:

Yea, the "under God" part was added in the early 1950's to show how we were different from the commies.

Same reason it's on our money.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8214/iamyourgodw.jpg

I have no problem with the Pledge as originally written.

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Every change to it since then has been for political purposes, and should be rejected.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I say the Pledge of Allegiance. I love it. And I sing the National Anthem. Still sends shivers up my spine smile.

"absolutely epic and really really loud" ~Zurf
                            ^
                      Life right?
Katie tongue

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I have no problem with the words under god in the pledge. I .don`t push my non-belief on others.  To quote linus. 3 things you don`t discuss, Politics, religon and the great pumpkin. But I do believe that the pledge should be required in schools. Red Skelton`s description should also be played in schools to explain what it is all about. After hearing him describe it, it has a lot more meaning.

Enjoy Every Sandwich
Nothing In Moderation  -- Live Fast. Love Hard. Die Young And Leave A Beautiful Corpse. -- Buy It Today. Cry About It Tomorrow.

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

whitewater55 wrote:

Yea, the "under God" part was added in the early 1950's to show how we were different from the commies.
I'm from Canada, and our national anthem contains the words "God keep our land, glorious and free", but I have yet to hear an atheist complaint about the lyrics.

I am not sure of this but I think it was President Dwight  Eisinhowser who brought god into the pledge and wanted it put into the schools in the 1950's. On the other hand he was the one who did not like cats and told his guards too kill them while he was in the white house if they came on the grounds. Not Right!!!.

my papy said son your going too drive me too drinking if you dont stop driving that   Hot  Rod  Lincoln!! Cmdr cody and his lost planet airman

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I consider myself agnostic or, rather, I believe in God but not religion. That being said I learned the Pledge with "under God" in it and I have never had an issue with it. what I do have an issue with is every special interest trying to change our society to reflect how they think it should appear. To me it is getting lost in the cornflakes and losing sight of what is truly important to our country and society as a whole.

This is another example of people losing sight of the important issues and creating an issue to try to inflate their own self-importance.

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I dont see anything wrong with  the pledge of allegiance or having God on our currency when this country won its independance the founding fathers based the bill of rights and our constitution on fundamental beliefs rooted it Christianity somehow thru the years these beliefs have been challenged and a slow erosion process grew like a cancer till we find ourselves heading in the same direction as the Roman empire which fell not from without but from within but I have faith that there are enough caring people who will take a stand when the chips are down pledge or no pledge.

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Russ, the founding fathers didn't base the bill of rights or the constitution on Christianity.  They based it on the writings of John Locke.   They were, for the most part Diests, but to call them Christian isn't an accurate statement.  Thomas Paine in particular had written savage criticisms of Christianity, and of Jefferson's many contributions, the "Jefferson Bible" may be the most significant.  It's the one he edited, removing all mysticism and miracles attributed to Jesus.

Had they wanted a Christian nation, they could have had one.

Someday we'll win this thing...

[url=http://www.aclosesecond.com]www.aclosesecond.com[/url]

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Jerome I beg to differ and I offer some quotes from the founding fathers and signers of the declaration of independance these are but a few there are more.
http://www.free2pray.info/5founderquotes.html

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

auxi wrote:

I say the Pledge of Allegiance. I love it. And I sing the National Anthem. Still sends shivers up my spine smile.

Singing the National Anthem sends shivers up my spine too!  wink  I wonder if it's a girl thing, a singer thing, or just a pride thing.  I love that song though!

Art and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.
What constitutes excellent music is in the ears of the listener.

17 (edited by Guitarpix 2012-02-15 21:36:38)

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Russell_Harding wrote:

I dont see anything wrong with  the pledge of allegiance or having God on our currency when this country won its independance the founding fathers based the bill of rights and our constitution on fundamental beliefs rooted it Christianity

I disagree with this... Influenced by Christian morals would be more accurate. And even that is confusing because "Christian Morals" is used to describe morals supported by Christianity..  Not to say that they are a "Christians" morals...  A wall is intended to be between church and state.

There's a huge difference between basing a constitution on Chirstian "beliefs"  vs christian supported morals~

This is a debate that has been going on forever and going by quotes and exerts is really misleading...  I think reading through the private letters between Jefferson and Adams is interesting though and gives a good insight as to their intent http://www.scribd.com/doc/12305/T-Jeffe … ms-letters

[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
[/color][/b]         [b]Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...[/b]

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

The constitution was actually based on the Iroquois five nations constitution, if truth be told. I have looked it up before, but I really can't be arsed to do so now. Too lazy.

As well, for the most part, the founding fathers could, at best, be described as deists. Their main religion, it appears to me, was Freemasonry.

Hank's prosepctive gutiar player said: "Mr Williams, I'm not sure I can play for you, the onliest chords I know are C D & G"
Hank repleis, after a short pause: "Well, what else is there?"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Amy, haha! it'd have to be a girly thing or a pride thing, cause I can't sing. tongue Did you see the replay of Whitney Houston singing it on the news? It was beautiful.

Wow, I'd love to read their letters. Thanks for posting, GP. I love this kind of stuff. I didn't have to read too far before I noticed Scripture quoted - anybody else see that?  Hope to get to read more of it (only read 3 pages).

"absolutely epic and really really loud" ~Zurf
                            ^
                      Life right?
Katie tongue

20 (edited by auxi 2012-02-15 21:42:23)

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Is Freemasonry a religion? I did not know that... Something new everyday, right? smile I found a list of the signers' religions. I'll see if I can find it again.


.........Found it,   http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2546951/posts   

Not positive about it's accuracy I know nothing about this site.

"absolutely epic and really really loud" ~Zurf
                            ^
                      Life right?
Katie tongue

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

Freemasonry is not a religion, though as I understand it they do require a belief that there is a higher power they do not have any requirements about which higher power it is that a member must believe in.  So whether that higher power is the God of Moses and Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Flying Spaghetti Monster, First Man or what-have-you does not seem to be important to them.

Granted B chord amnesty by King of the Mutants (Long live the king).
If it comes from the heart and you add a few beers... it'll be awesome! - Mekidsmom
When in doubt ... hats. - B.G. Dude

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I used the definition of Freemasonry as a religion because for many of the founding fathers, the practice of Freemasonry and attendance at Masonic meetings was likely far more influencial on their lives than any religion practiced. Freemasonry can be seen as a philosophy much akin to religion.

As to the constitution, it is a wise document. The writers clearly understood the dangers of mixing religion and politics, and framed the constitution with that in mind. The establishment clause was a reaction the European practice of fomenting a state religion. They truly wanted a country where one's religion, or lack thereof, would in no way be a determining factor in one's political aspirations, or on the holding of public office.

Were they influenced by their upbringing and culture? Certainly, but the wording of the constiturion does manage to convey the ideal outlined in the previous paragraph.

There is a danger to freedom and democracy when a person's religious affiliation and personal beliefs becomes the determinant factor in electability. Clearly the constitution says it should not. Reality shows that for regular folks, one's beliefs can become a determining factor in how they vote, but that is contrary to the spirit of the constitution, ie there shall be no religious "test" required to hold public office.

Religion is a touchy subject, fraught with danger to democracy. Once that road is travelled down, we can look to various theocracies in the world and clearly understand the dangers of mixing one's political beliefs with one's deeply held, personal religious beliefs. If we judge each other's character based upon our differences in personal beliefs, we endanger all of our freedoms.

Religion, that is, a person's belief system, should be a very personal experience, and should be a uniter. Instead, it becomes a divisive thing, where we, as imperfect humans, expect and sometimes demand that we should all hold the same convictions, or be "cast out" and denied the opportunity to accomplish good for our country. This creates schisms based soley on deeply personal beliefs, and not on that which unites us.

The bible clearly states that one should judge not, lest we be meted the same judgement, and that the judging and punishment belong to God only. We, as imperfect humans, are not qualified to judge a person solely upon that persons religious beliefs, or lack thereof. I speak not of laws or societal punishments for infringing upon other's rights, rather, the idea that one's beliefs are deeply personal, and vary significantly between individuals.

I'm all for religious freedom, provided that freedom does NOT infringe upon my right to believe or not believe, according to my own concience. No one has the right to deny my personal beliefs, or to force their beliefs on me. That is why the constitution is worded the way it is. Freedom is more than a nice patriotic word, it is the life force behind the U.S. constitution.

Hank's prosepctive gutiar player said: "Mr Williams, I'm not sure I can play for you, the onliest chords I know are C D & G"
Hank repleis, after a short pause: "Well, what else is there?"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

I have bookmarked this link so I can read this later and thanks for providing it smile

Guitarpix wrote:
Russell_Harding wrote:

I dont see anything wrong with  the pledge of allegiance or having God on our currency when this country won its independance the founding fathers based the bill of rights and our constitution on fundamental beliefs rooted it Christianity

I disagree with this... Influenced by Christian morals would be more accurate. And even that is confusing because "Christian Morals" is used to describe morals supported by Christianity..  Not to say that they are a "Christians" morals...  A wall is intended to be between church and state.

There's a huge difference between basing a constitution on Chirstian "beliefs"  vs christian supported morals~

This is a debate that has been going on forever and going by quotes and exerts is really misleading...  I think reading through the private letters between Jefferson and Adams is interesting though and gives a good insight as to their intent http://www.scribd.com/doc/12305/T-Jeffe … ms-letters

"Growing old is not for sissies"

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

whitewater55 wrote:

I used the definition of Freemasonry as a religion because for many of the founding fathers, the practice of Freemasonry and attendance at Masonic meetings was likely far more influencial on their lives than any religion practiced. Freemasonry can be seen as a philosophy much akin to religion.

9 of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Masons.
13 of 39 signers of the Constitution were Masons.
14 Presidents were Masons.

37 out of 39 of the signers of Constitution were Christian and 52 out of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Christian.
All of our Presidents have been Christians.

Wouldn't swear by these numbers but they're as close as I could find.

"absolutely epic and really really loud" ~Zurf
                            ^
                      Life right?
Katie tongue

25 (edited by Guitarpix 2012-02-16 20:51:35)

Re: THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE

auxi wrote:
whitewater55 wrote:

I used the definition of Freemasonry as a religion because for many of the founding fathers, the practice of Freemasonry and attendance at Masonic meetings was likely far more influencial on their lives than any religion practiced. Freemasonry can be seen as a philosophy much akin to religion.

9 of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Masons.
13 of 39 signers of the Constitution were Masons.
14 Presidents were Masons.

37 out of 39 of the signers of Constitution were Christian and 52 out of 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were Christian.
All of our Presidents have been Christians.

Wouldn't swear by these numbers but they're as close as I could find.

This is where it get's tricky... At that time almost any faith in any "creator" was classified generally as"Christian"  You need to understand how it was back then...Christian Colonists branded non-christians on the forehead with red-hot irons, bore them through their tongues, confiscated their property and threw them in jail, hanged them and burned them at the stake...  So admitting that you were not a Christian wasn't very popular.  If you've read the private letters I posted above from that time period you'll see Jefferson addressing his own concerns about being judged over his true beliefs..  So IMO it makes accounts of their beliefs inaccurate at best with everyone feeling that they needed to hide their true beliefs... I also believe this is one of the main reasons for their intended wall between church and state and the lack of religious references in the constitution...

From a 1796 treaty from Washington and Adams:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/404872_10150639948858534_545853533_9293956_317904913_n.jpg

[b][color=#FF0000]If your brain is part of the process, you're missing it. You should play like a drowning man, struggling to reach shore. If you can trap that feeling, then you have something.
[/color][/b]         [b]Peace of mind. That's my piece of mind...[/b]