The primary reason, IMO, of the abandoned guitar!

Hello, Doug, and thank 'you' for your comments which are equally spot on! I guess my comment was a reaction to those websites or individual players who simply tell various novice players out there to 'expect' the finger pain but they all too often say nothing about callous formation moderation! In fact, some actually suggest, and I quote, "... play until they bleed, if you must, but keep playing and the fingers will get used to it" [sic] -- the problem with that "advice" being the danger factor of literally damaging the fingertips and, another reality, new players, and as you well know having taught new folks,  they will attempt to avoid the painful or initial blister  forming part of the fingertip callous which is generally square in the middle of the fingertip where it normally should be and, as a negative consequence, they'll place the finger in an awkward string depression position to avoid the more painful area and the poor results, playing wise, becomes quickly obvious! It's often difficult to get through the mesage of 'moderation' .

Indeed, even with the piano and I've been with that for over 40 years, the student will attempt a piece far beyond their musical experience and then become quickly frustrated because they just don't have the experience to play the more advanced pieces correctly or at least, fluidly. Conversely, you get the brand new guitar player and when he/she can't 'play along' with a Jeff Beck type, suddenly the easier tunes or bottom line 'basic' chord mastery or scales work becomes too 'boring' and not to mention your quite excellent point that 'string' players in fact require that requisite 'dues' to master the 'correct' depression of the strings. It takes time, to be sure!

Indeed, to this day, and noting that my piano is always first in my musical endeavors, I still find, after all these years,  doing guitar 'barre' chords  as particularly trying.  I know folks who can do barre chords as if they were born doing them but I personally have difficulty with them where, truth be told, at 'least' 2 strings will be, shall we say, "DOA" [Dead On Arrival]  when 'I' do the barre chord thing!  I keep thinking that there is some magical cure to perfecting a decent guitar barre chord and getting the index finger to do what it's supposed to do for the barre and the old thumb squarely in the middle of the neck thing but, I suppose as Franz Liszt said on the piano, the ultimate "secret" is, as Liszt put it with regard to the piano, the three-fold "secret" of piano mastery:  "practice, practice ... and more practice."

Oh, this one in passing -- some time back I got,  "In the piano, there is the "quiet pedal" [sic], but what about the guitar when I want to practice?" -- I recommended what is often advertised as a "bass guitar pick" but has the plus side double-duty of appreciably lowering the volume of the guitar, the ==FELT== pick! I also call it a "practice pick" -- it does the job! I solved the acoustic piano sound, especially during the wee hours when I want to play, via an 88 key 'electronic' piano which affords what my downstairs acoustic piano does not, those headphones! Not to mention using a Roland XV-5080 [and Gem RP-X] synthesizer having dedicated piano module "patches" built-in and direct to the electronic piano via a single MIDI cord connection so no computer is even needed! But the acoustic guitar still holds its charm with me and I keep it up -- and those left hand finger callouses! And yeah, as they say, I still tend to avoid the guitar barre chords but that popular and in many tunes "B minor barre chord" still sees me using the 'alternate'  non barre B minor!  Liszt was/is right! Practice,  practice and more practice! But 'moderation' [fingertips or tricky guitar barre chords inclusive] has its place! Guitar or piano ... or whatever musical instrument!     

Whew! That all said and quite possibly placing some folks in the forum into Zzzzzzzzz-land, I'll lay back for a spell and read the other forums and threads. There is always something to learn here and there. Great website! I especially like the forums and the wealth of tips and techniques out there from seasoned players and the website idea of guitar chord semitone  transpositions! Helps with the piano too! 

Regards and thank you! 
 

Doc Tony

Hello, Doug! Just back from a few days in Vermont on piano related matters. An excellent tip on the guitar barre chords! My error was concentrating far too much on the index finger pressure to form the barre [with rather poor results to boot!] rather than [and only with your comment does it dawn on me! A dead give away that the guitar is not my primary instrument, yes?] -- anyway, only with your comment does it dawn on me  to consider the 'angle'  aspect(s)  [both body and guitar] of forming the barre versus solely the index finger pressure issue [but 'not' changing either body or guitar neck position] which indeed makes quite a difference! In effect, I was simply repeating the same error over and over again and this explains why at least two of those barre strings would generally be DOA! 

It got so that when I wanted to practice barre chords if only to maintain where they were and not forget them entirely, I'd "cheat" and by that I mean grabbing my Yamaha "EZ-AG" 'electronic' guitar and doing the barre chords without the DOA since it was so easy to fret the barre with those plastic button "strings" on the fret board! Naturally, when I returned to the normal acoustic [I use, among others,  a Zager CE-80] and despite that guitar having been professionally adjusted in terms of lowering the strings, the same problem came up. As a result, I tended to avoid barre chords altogether or do the 'alternate' [like the B minor] chord shapes to readily avoid the barre.  Your angle or "classical position" approach to the problem is golden!

Oh, one correction on my own post about felt picks for any readers --  I didn't mean to suggest that the felt [but solid] felt picks used for the bass guitar was the way to go to soften the sound of the acoustic guitar while practicing because these felt picks specifically for the bass guitar can be quite hard. I meant to say the rather thick and quite 'flexible' felt pick as the one that lessens the volume. Here is where the guitar shares the 'volume' issue with the piano -- one gets the urge to play [piano or guitar] during the wee hours and the sound tends to 'travel' even through a closed door so softening that volume becomes an issue. In the piano, the best approach is the synthesizer with dedicated piano modules and those headphones on an electronic '88' piano and for the guitar [acoustic] that rather thick and flexible ==felt== pick can help tremendously to reduce the volume but 'not' to be confused with the 'hard' felt bass guitar picks which can be every bit as loud as the plastic picks!

BTW, I run about 80/20 finger/strum 'mix' meaning that on the acoustic guitar I do about 80% finger picking and 20% pick [Fender 'thin'] strumming since certain songs just about mandate a strum although I think a 'combination' of the two is often interesting to experiment with! 

Regards and thanks again, Doug!

Doc Tony

Indeed, Nela -- and an excellent tip -- in fact, a similar comment in terms of having the guitar 'higher' while standing to facilitate the barre chords [at least in terms of how he felt comfortable with it and recognizing that each player does what works best for them ... and ditto with the piano too, I'll add at once] was made by well known session guitarist, Steuart [sic] Smith. In one case, and with regard to the Eagles "Farewell I" tour in Melbourne, Australia [AKA "Oz Land"],  one viewer noticed that in Steuart's 'double neck' guitar, the so-called 'normal' position of the 6 string and 12 string position on the guitar necks  was 'reversed' because Steuart said, essentially, "... it works better for me in that position ... " and he also plays the guitar high on the chest -- and there you have it. 

Sidebar: It still amazes me that when folks hear I play classical piano [as a passion] and then I mention names like Joe Walsh or indeed Steuart Smith and others, I get, "YOU like that kind of music?" as if to suggest that it's somehow 'odd' for someone to really enjoy doing, just as one quick classical "war horse" piece  example, the 2nd movement of Beethoven's "Appassionata" and then in the same breath comment about someone like Joe Walsh or the playing of Steuart Smith with the Eagles! The 'why' of such reactions escaping me forthwith! In fact, I have friends who will see my acoustic guitars and the usual comment is, "Ohhh, you're into 'classical' guitar or 60's era 'folk' music?" [!] believing that if it's an 'acoustic' guitar, well, isn't everything 'electric' ! Then I say, "Hey, remember Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young -- how many 'electric' guitars did you see when they played together?" and the now expected response is along the lines of, "Well, yeah, I remember them  .. but the 60's/70's  stuff .. ." In desperation , I advise them to get the Eagles 2004 "Oz Land" tour  and check out the amount of times the Eagles go "unplugged" just as often as they use the solid body electric stuff. Great DVD that one, the Eagles Melbourne tour and catch those "out-takes" with Joe Walsh and his usual trade-mark 'dead-pan' interview voice delivery, to wit, the Oz Land interviewer: "So, Joe, how would you compare this Australia tour [2004] with the Eagles compared to the last one?" and Joe Walsh, 'being' Joe Walsh of course, duly quips, "Well, I 'remember' [!] this one  ... which is good."  Ahhh, if I could play like Joe Walsh [or Steuart Smith], I'd be well satisfied!

I still find tho' that the 'majority' of players [guitar and piano, or, as they say, "keyboards" when waxing on those 'electronic' versions] do so for personal enjoyment as oposed to making a living at it full time.  But that being the case, and I agree with many others who have made this comment, that if there are any 'rules', it really comes down to a case of "no rules" [within reason of course] or, put simply, whatever works for the player and what he/she finds personally satisfying! I did a bunch of reviews on Amazon specifically concerning classical piano and I'm certain I offended the ultra purists out there in the classical piano genre when I 'defended' so-called piano 'fake books' or so-called "adaptations/arrangements" [read: not as the composer wrote the piece but alternative methods or 'transpositions']. While I 'did' argue that certain classical pieces simply sound  better if played 'sic' [** "as written" -- and don't chuckle at this mentioned meaning of the Latin word 'sic' because in one of my Amazon reviews I got, are you ready for this, "Who are YOU to make a 'value judgment' [!!] and say the song is "sic" [!], it sounds good to me!" [sic] ], hey, what is the big problem or "sin" with doing an 'adaption' or easier key/chord 'arrangement' [guitar, piano, 'whatever'!] of the piece! This business of the ultra purist making with the old tired axiom of, "Play it as written .. or not at all!" is, IMO, pure bosh! One plays for their 'own' enjoyment and their 'own' pleasure and if one [or 'group' therein] feels good about the results, that's all that matters!  Perhaps 'that' explains where virtually 'any' song has its 'adaptations' or, indeed, chord transpositions! Or as some websites phrase it after the song [variations] and its accompanying chords, to wit, "easy" -- "difficult", but so what! One always maintains the absolute option of moving from the 'easy' TO the 'difficult' version, yes? Or the 'adaption/arrangement' to the writer/composer 'sic' piece!     

Doc Tony