Re: voice training

Maybe i'm just tired tonight,

i am finding it hard to understand some of these post!

But i have read all the post here.  Ive been singing all my life.   in my early years i got a singers nodules.

My Throat Specialist removed them.  He  told me i would lose the E range in my voice which i did. 

He also told me it was caused by not having proper breath control while singing and dehydration?.

He, all thoses years ago sent me for breath control exercises. Which were amazing. These made a huge difference
to my singing.

Speak quietly, is a big one to protect the vocal chords.  Also Warming up before singing.,

I personally  have never tried to sing like anyone else. My own God given voice is unique to me.

as is to all of us.

Slán

Old Doll.

Why Blend in with the Crowd ? When you were made to stand out !

Re: voice training

I agree with you totally!   Learn how the car works and why it does what it does.  Knowing how it works makes it easier to control what it's going to do!   

Knowing that the gas will go fast to the motor if I step hard on the peddle, that's good.   Knowing that the clutch will release the gears when I press with my left foot, and that I can shift with my right hand...  also good to know...   And glad to know that I can TRUST it to do these things.  Because without knowing how it works I could never understand how to drive it.   (Especially if it didn't do the things it should... then I could never understand it...)

But how do we get where we're going?   Don't we have to spend just a little bit of mental energy on WHERE we're going?  Or HOW we're gonna get there?   Do you find your way through a foreign city by concentrating on how the gas gets to the motor?  Or how the clutch works?  If you're only thinking about HOW the car works, how do you get anywhere?   You should be busy worrying about the ROUTE you're gonna take; how fast; how slow; traffic; street signs; how many turns...  You know, stuff like that...

Do you sing?  Do you concentrate on how you're going to interpret a melody, or do concentrate on how your diaphragm pulls up when you sing a note?
I'm sure you play guitar.  Me too. Also piano and congas.  ... sorry if I mention that.... 

So... do you worry about whether your fingers are going to hit the right frets at the right time, that both your hands will coordinate the effort without you having to pay SUCH close attention to it, that people will wonder if a guitar is a new and wondrous thing to you..?

Please, I mean no offense.   In this context, it's a good question.

Driving a car is a good analogy....  You proved this point.

NEXT?

Re: voice training

I learn the song, first. Very rarely sightread. By learning first it's almost second nature when it comes time to actually perform it and the actual technique for the piece is embedded in my brain.

As for the car, I'm paying enough attention to be able to tell whether it's running well, or overheating, or dropping a cylinder (again). Otherwise, I know my car well enough that it's become second nature. Same thing with music, I don't really need to pay attention until something goes wrong in which case I remedy the problem. I also don't use a clutch when changing gear, usually, unless I need to shift at odd engine speeds.

The guitar is an instrument, just a system to be understood. Same as the piano, the drums, the human voice, the saxophone, any other instrument you want to name. Less of an identifier than another color on your palette to express yourself with. The guitar just covers more colors than any other instrument for me.

"You have to get over the love of power, and enjoy the power of love, in order to know peace."
-Jimi Hendrix.

Re: voice training

I was just about to switch off here!


But i have to say VirginiaK to you . Your posts here are a tad insulting to the Chordie forum.

Do you realize you sound like "  no one else here quite knows what there talking about? There are

i can assure you  quite a lot of people here with great expertize in every aspect of the  music business.

  They just dont feel the need to air it, or prove themselves.

We can all only speak with honesty here. You seem angry and dismissive!

None of us are stuck were we are, unless of course we decide to be.

Oiche Mhait.

Old Doll.

Why Blend in with the Crowd ? When you were made to stand out !

Re: voice training

VirginiaK wrote:

Hello Southpaw41L

You are absolutely right in what you say.

Singing is an art.  And in my opinion, concentrating on breathing simply gets in the way of the art.  Because it focuses on a technical skill that should work naturally.  Concentrating on the breathing, especially in a way where one is NOT actually singing is moving the art into science. 
In my humble, but learned opinion:
All forms of singing require the same basic breathing ability.  (With some exceptions eg. classical---things we don't do in pop/rock/folk or jazz music.)  But for the most part, we all have the same apparatus and when it's working naturally and correctly, it works the same in all of us regardless of what we're singing.  It's just that the different styles of song cause each of us to use this ability differently.  When I sing "More Than Words" or "I'll Be Watching You", I don't use the skill in the same way as when I'm singing "My Funny Valentine", but that does not mean that I need to learn two different techniques of breathing.  Just a different style of singing.  With one style one would maybe use more chest-voice in the mix; the other one might use a lighter head-voice. Or both combined.  But that is not controlled by the breathing.  It's controlled through the vowel.   

And that's where the fun begins.  That's where the artistic field opens wide up.  Because you get to think about how to interpret a word or phrase.  Whether to make it sad or angry or happy...   And see what kinds of sounds you get.  It is so much fun!  But the breathing should just come along naturally to support it.  I have learned by my own experience that this should not be learned separately.

Name any singer who sounds great, and you'll hear an instinctive use of vowels. And please don't think that I sing something like "Piece of My Heart" like an opera singer.  Ooooooo...   that would be pretty scary,  He he he....  I am not a classical singer.   Never was... Grew up on Procal Harem, Janis Joplin, Grace Slick, Led Zeppelin...  I just wanted to sing this music but I didn't want to ruin my voice the way SOME of them did....  Look at Robert Plant for example, even two months ago(live concert I heard), he still sounds like he's 25 years old!  Listen to his diction.  His vowels.  You can say that he breathes properly, but that wouldn't happen without a relationship to vowels.

If a blues singer sings a word in a song that sounds so great, it's because he or she played with the vowel.  "Turned the WORD around in his/her mouth in an interesting way".  That's about art.  I talked about this in an earlier message that is somehow no longer there. (Doesn't matter. I must have I forgotten to  press "submit".)

For example, Aretha Franklin had this great way of throwing a vowel around in her mouth that gave her this signature double vibrato.   It was big fun figuring out how she did that.   But I didn't figure it out through breathing.  I figured it out by figuring out, "What is SHE doing?"   ----  playing with a vowel...
(I used to be a jobbing singer--only for money--good money!) and I would do a set where in one song I had to sing it just like Diana Ross; next song-just like Bonnie Raitt, then Aretha,  then backup for WHAM (ohmygod) or a Joe Cocker song, or Janis Joplin, then Whitney Houston. Then somebody wants to hear something from America or Jefferson Airplane.   Can't do all that without knowing how they make their sound.  In this work, one learns about vowels.  Got NO time to think about breathing.

Learning breathing is like learning to ride a bike.  Sometimes you just want to cruise slowly; sometimes you want to ride fast and furious; sometimes you want to pull wheelies, and bank off ramps (that requires some special training).  But the ability to balance oneself on the bike and ride without falling and hurting oneself is something we learn naturally.   I never tried to steer my advice in the direction of cutting out the ART of singing and concentrating on the science of singing.   I am steadfast against this.  Maybe you misunderstood what I said in a previous post.   (Recordings will support me.)

In fact I mentioned that if one is having intonation trouble, it's probably not the breathing.  (Although some other problem is getting in the way of the natural breathing ability. It's a reciprocal event.)   So think about something else; ie, key. 

Usually one needs to fix the vowels, (or posture, which I didn't mention, I think. Bad posture makes it hard for the body to support the sound).  Sometimes fixing the key will fix the vowels because they're easier to sing when they don't always land on a break. 

AND I don't think this way, because professors told me that.  I have learned this from dragging through this quagmire of voice training that it's better to find the answers myself.   I simply naturally rejected the notion of "breath exercises without tone" long ago. I just happily found that in the last 15-20 years, that most professors don't support it either.

And also, not all voice professors are classical. Mine weren't.  But I DID work under one long ago who told me that I have to teach my students to train their diaphragms not to collapse.   Huh?  I asked three doctors about this and each one laughed and said:  "If that happens, you would stop breathing and die!"   

Come on, you gotta find that funny!

In most universities around the world (I'm talking pop/folk/rock/jazz departments), they simply don't teach breathing without tone anymore.   It's just a fact.  A wonderful fact because I always thought it was nonsense, anyway.  (But lots of private and Music School teachers still buy into it, mostly because they're afraid not to...  or they don't know anything else.  Or they learned it from their teachers, but don't realize that they really learned it on stage, or through the songs they had to sing.....  so they keep on teaching it...  mostly out  of insecurity...   REALLY... sadly, this is true!)

If you compare the voice to a car, the vowel is the steering wheel.  We don't concentrate on how the gas gets from the tank in back, up front to the motor.  We concentrate on keeping on the road. And we work the gear shift, gas, breaks, and clutch naturally--hopefully.  If you're having trouble with shifting gears, then concentrating on how the gas gets to the motor is kinda pointless because that's the CAR's function.  You have to learn to coordinate your feet and arms.   And you won't succeed if you concentrate on how the gas gets to the motor. 

With voice, we coordinate the use of throat and abdomen muscles---diaphragm knows its job;    If somehow it doesn't.... better not go to sleep!

My opinion is, forget about the breathing.  Do exercises that turn the breath support on naturally.   We were breathing naturally and correctly for singing already, without training, when we were babies...   In fact, voice training is all about removing the problems we build in as we grow up, and try to come back to this natural ability.

This is what I said in the first place....

Before you write this attitude off, try it.   One should sing some song that one always sings, and try different, let's say, "accents".  See how the voice changes. See how the  breathing ability adjusts itself.  If something doesn't work, one can try something else.   'We artists are full of ideas, aren't we?  We can go on forever until we find something that works.  If not, then something else is wrong...

Will you please expand a little further on this??????

How about a little snippet of you in action somewhere, or an address of where you perform.  I'd love to see the greatest of all time in action............

Give everything but up.

Re: voice training

We are all hot and bothered aren't we!

To be honest, I found Virginia's comments valuable and reflected what trained singers have said to me. I also get the impression that the breathing exercises that everyone is getting exercised about are one and the same, it's just that Virginia prefers to vocalise when performing them.

Surely we must be "slow to chide and swift to bless", as the old drunk at the bottom of the street said before he became a pastor.

"What's so funny 'bout peace, love and understandin' ."    Elvis Costello

32 (edited by Old Doll 2008-04-12 09:18:49)

Re: voice training

Good Morning Forum.
This is a post i received from VirginiaK. I make no apology for copying and pasting same to the Forum. I just Thank God, this kind of rancid negative raving is a rariety in this friendly cyber space.  Thank You Per and Admin for keeping it so.


He doll, I posted a comment, and have been harrassed by upyourkylt (or some such nonsense name).  I got a very ugly private email from him.

God, creepy....

I responded publicly, sticking to the topic, but mentioned his "not nice" private email.  He deleted it of course.  doesn't want anyone to know he's

getting ugly with a woman when no one's around..

Since then, I have been harassed by others and you....   god, I knew you would show up eventually...

BTW: I've heard you...



What I don't get about you guys is why you can't stand to hear anything that isn't coming out of a doctor's office.

I mean, I'm figuring out now that you guys all have NODES.



And don't  fool yourselves into thinking that that makes you a bigger artist that those of us who were smart

enough not to get them.  Unless you want to put yourselves in league with someone like Joe Cocker.



Improper breathing and dehydration...   Sounds like you were drinking too much.



Tell your Scottish friend he can call off the DOGS.



But please don't give advice to young singers.   You can only talk about nodes....  And doctors...   You're not help to anyone...



Bunch of losers.....{ End of quote}


Fáilte  VirginiaK.

You are one very "Very Nasty Woman..  I have lots of Woman Friends, very skilled in all there chosen fields.
But you know, they are mature woman. They dont throw there toys out of the playpen because someone doesnt agree with them. They have dignified discussions about whatever the subject matter is.

The funny thing in all of this, i as a very young girl had voice training. So much for all she taught me. I still got nodules!!

Also your Insulting remark about my drinking. I dont need to qualify my self to you. Im not looking for your approval!

Your perception of me wont make one iota of difference to my happy days or the Ladylike way i was taught to conduct myself in life.
But! because were Irish, people like you have the perception  " If were Irish we must be Drinkers?.  { cheap Shot that one as you appear to be an intelligent woman}.

I have no illusions about myself. i am  no bigger or better then anyone. { unlike your self }
Equality is what my life is all about..

As far as i know 2 of us here on the Forum have suffered with singers nodules. So learn how not to generalize
when writing.

Please dont ask me to do you dirty work for you? Use your own lack of communication skills to insult your fellow Chordians.  You must be so proud of your self, calling  "Chordian Members" Loosers.

I am so thankful that none of my family members will ever have to access your so called  ability to voice train.

Your negativy and anger would be contagious. We are all very happy people who can sing.
Our true feeling are expressed in our natural ability to sing and enjoy life with out the machanics. Like in  every other aspect of our lives.

Remember the laws of the universal Energy Virginiak, Everthing you give out you get back ! you will i have no doubt, be called a LOSER in times to come. WATCH OUT FOR THIS ! its a good lesson in how to live life graciously.

It just may jolt you  from sounding like a "Manic Menapausal Woman" into behaving like a Lady!

Get a nice sunlounger for your self. Sit in the sun and practise your own Breathing Exercises.
If done correctly, this will calm your mind and soul.

God's gift of peace is wished to you this day with easy breath control.

from The Beautiful Emerald.  { Sober as a Judge } Imagine that!!

Slán

Old Doll.

Why Blend in with the Crowd ? When you were made to stand out !

Re: voice training

thanks for that old doll.

She is making out I was keeping my email to her a secret or something.
I did email her to tell her what I thought about her dictaing to people in here when she knows right. I also told her my advice was from an expert too, even though she claims to be one.
I emailed her personally so as not to start an online argument that others would not like to see.
she says she found it "ugly" ? I do not know why other than trying to make me look bad, or worse than I am,lol. If she thinks it was ugly then all I can think is not many people speak thier mind to her and she doesnt like it.
She replied to me in this thread enticing an argument, this is why I deleted her post.

before this thread gets out of hand it is getting closed.

Anymore of this creeping up elsewhere in the forum will be deleted and will result in member(s) getting a warning or a weeks ban. If they persist in this afterwards then it will be a lifetime ban.

this forum is for helping others and listening to other peoples advice. Not to dictate that they know better than anyone. If any person cannot understand that people have different opinions then maybe this is not the forum they would like to stay in.

It is not wrong for people to disagree and have words saying so in a discussion but when it is a blatent argumentative or dictating thread then administrators for chordie will have no choice but to close/delete/ban/warn , whatever is felt appropriate.

now lets get back to the nice side of things.

thanks

ken

ye get some that are cut out for the job and others just get by from pretending